# Why should Church and State be separate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914 "2013-02-10T22:49:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/21 "2013-02-11T07:41:59Z")
> [@TheCrow](#): > > Why is it good for a state to be religious or why is it bad for a state to be religious? > 🙂 Wiki’s a good starting point to help you compare and contrast the US and the UK for your homework. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/22 "2013-02-11T07:45:57Z")
1. People don’t agree on religion. 2. There is no realistic prospect that people ever _will_ agree on religion. 3. Despite that, people do _care_ about religion, often quite deeply and passionately. Separation of church and state–that is, secular government and state neutrality with respect to religious opinions–is the best way to protect everyone’s freedom of religion (and the freedom _from_ religion of those who don’t accept any religion). That freedom is something that at the very least everyone wants for _themselves_. How then can you guarantee your own freedom of religion without guaranteeing that of everyone else? (Given that there is not going to be any miraculous universal consensus in religious belief short of Divine Intervention–or totalitarian coercion.) And if we don’t separate government and religion, we have to decide, who is not quite equal in our society, and just how unequal are they? The state is not a voluntary organization; you can decide for yourself what religion to adhere to; you don’t get to decide for yourself what laws you will obey or what taxes you will pay. It’s therefore best to strictly separate the (involuntary, ultimately has the power of coercion) realm of state power from the (is not and never will be agreed upon yet is passionately cared about) realm of religion. Separation of government and religion is also much more likely to bring about and maintain civil peace than mixing in claims that can never be proven but for which people are willing to die (or even kill) with the business of making laws–that everyone has to obey–to enable everyone to live together in the here-and-now. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/23 "2013-02-11T08:08:41Z")
> [@TheCrow](#): > > Why is it good for a state to be religious or why is it bad for a state to be religious? > 🙂 It’s not about the state being religious or not. It’s about the state being able to control the church. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/24 "2013-02-11T08:44:05Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Separation of church and state–that is, secular government and state neutrality with respect to religious opinions–is the best way to protect everyone’s freedom of religion (and the freedom _from_ religion of those who don’t accept any religion). As is amply demonstrated by the example of the UK, state neutrality or formal separation of church and state is not essential to protect freedom of religion or freedom from religion. The UK( or Europe) is probably a far better place to be an atheist than the US, even though it has a state religion. It would be nice if the UK (or European) dopers could trace the history of this phenomenon. Since when has religion been informally divorced from public life? How did this come to be? ---
**Author:** ![Pitchmeister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pitchmeister/32/3459_2.png) [@Pitchmeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pitchmeister)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/25 "2013-02-11T08:48:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > **In Germany they have prayer in schools** and high levels of atheism. These may be connected. (Bolding mine) Ummm… no. No, we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/26 "2013-02-11T09:32:27Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > As is amply demonstrated by the example of the UK, state neutrality or formal separation of church and state is not essential to protect freedom of religion or freedom from religion. The UK( or Europe) is probably a far better place to be an atheist than the US, even though it has a state religion. It would be nice if the UK (or European) dopers could trace the history of this phenomenon. Since when has religion been informally divorced from public life? How did this come to be? State establishment of religion in England is vestigial. Once upon a time people were [burned to death](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_persecutions) and [disemboweled while they were still alive](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_martyrs_of_the_English_Reformation) over the question of the established church in England (that is, just which church should be established). As recently as the 19th century dissenters from the Church of England faced real legal discrimination (including [having to fight for years for the right to sit in Parliament after having been duly elected–multiple times–by one’s constituents](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bradlaugh)). The question of Catholic rights was a significant contributor to the problems in Ireland. So, yes, an established church that has withered away to the point where no one is actually being gruesomely killed over it–where in fact no one takes it very seriously at all–is not incompatible with general freedom of religion. That still doesn’t make it a _good idea_. (I’m not an Englishman; I suspect the group who might now most benefit from formal disestablishment would be the remaining Englishmen who are actual serious believing adherents of Anglican Christianity.) ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/27 "2013-02-11T10:51:14Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > So, yes, an established church that has withered away to the point where no one is actually being gruesomely killed over it–where in fact no one takes it very seriously at all–is not incompatible with general freedom of religion. That still doesn’t make it a _good idea_. Of course it doesn’t make it a good idea. It just makes it an idea that is demonstrably compatible with irreligiosity in public life. This says that the causation behind said irreligiosity is not the seemingly obvious ‘separation of church and state’, but something else altogether. Seeing as both of us seem to be of the view that religion is not that good of a thing, it would behoove us to try and pin down what that something else is, rather than insisting on nominal separation of church and state, and in reality having constant kowtowing to the religious, as happens in both of our countries (Assuming that you’re from the US. I’m from India) ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/28 "2013-02-11T14:24:25Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/29 "2013-02-11T14:54:47Z")
By and large religion in Britain _is_ separate from the State on an operative level, but they are intertwined in a symbolic nature, and in the presence of Bishops in the House of Lords. [Here](http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2012/11/do-bishops-house-lords-actually-change-anything) is an interesting article on the day-to-day impact of Bishops as lawmakers in Parliament - the conclusion seems to be that they are negligible. The chief difference is, I think, that while generally religion and the State try to keep aloof from each other on a day-to-day basis, Parliament remains completely free, if necessary, to legislate on religious matters and we have no First Amendment that religion can hide behind. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/30 "2013-02-11T15:23:35Z")
Iran. The Inquisition. Salem Witch Trials. The Crusades. Pakistan. Sudan. Reconquista. AIDS in Africa spread by denial of contraceptives. Take your pick. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/31 "2013-02-11T16:20:48Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > 1. There is no realistic prospect that people ever will agree on religion. This is crucial. If I may bring some existentialism to bear on the problem, given that there is no inherent meaning to life beyond what we give it, and that the variance of individuals will always produce wildly differing opinions on what the meaning is, a free society must be able to accept individuals believing and practicing as they desire. There is no doctrine so true and so compelling as to win everyone as a convert, nor can there ever be. Establishing one doctrine as the only acceptable one is thus to entrench oppression. Oppression is anathema to societies of worth. Therefore, no worthwhile society can blend church and state. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/32 "2013-02-11T16:29:41Z")
It seems obvious that unless Church and State have a high degree of seperation then they would be one and the same. Anyone who doesn’t belong to the state religion will be unhappy with that, although they might just want the state religion to change. And anyone who prefers democracy would also find it disadvantageous, unless there’s some sort of religion that is democratiic in nature, and that wouldn’t really match up to most people’s concept of a religion. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/33 "2013-02-11T16:42:27Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It seems obvious that unless Church and State have a high degree of seperation then they would be one and the same. It seems obvious, yet it is manifestly not so. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/34 "2013-02-11T17:31:58Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#): > > (Bolding mine) > > Ummm… no. No, we don’t. The public school my daughter taught in had Mass for the kids. It was in Southern Germany, true. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/35 "2013-02-11T17:52:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because religion and the state bring out the worst in each other. Religion loses even the facade of being civilized since it doesn’t have to persuade people anymore, and the state becomes fanatics; utterly ruthless, malignant and insane. The Archbishop of Canterbury wants a word with you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/36 "2013-02-11T18:14:00Z")
Political ideology is divorced enough from reality already. What is gained by adding in unprovable ideas about how your imaginary friends will treat you in the afterlife? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/37 "2013-02-11T18:42:22Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > That must be why our politics and society here in the UK are so deeply infected with religious extremism, whereas that is not the case in the USA at all, of course. And when did [Catholics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_the_United_Kingdom) get their rights back? Wasn’t the Catholic Emancipation in 1830? And when did _all_ the nonlegal prejudice end? And exactly why cant Chuckie marry a nice catholic girl and convert and sit the throne? Or the Heir and the Spare? [For us USians, think Jim Crow Laws, just in whiteface and catholic.] ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/38 "2013-02-11T18:44:06Z")
Separation of church and state is terrible…unless its my church ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/39 "2013-02-11T19:14:09Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Separation of church and state is terrible…unless its my church I’m comfortable with a government tied to the worship of Yog-Sothoth. I have a few people to volunteer as sacrifices. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914/40 "2013-02-11T19:44:26Z")
Leaving aside the historical examples, since they’re obviously not helpful, it seems to me that religion and government have different purposes and serve different roles in society (and in people’s individual lives). There’s no real benefit to combining the two. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-church-and-state-be-separate/649914.md?page=3)