# Why Should Guns Be Legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2017, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154 "2017-10-07T00:21:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/261 "2017-12-06T03:11:51Z")
People do not resort to organized violence unless they are violence-prone to start with or are _ **extremely** _ oppressed. The American people are coming under increasing attack from the kleptocrats, but remain well-fed and can still afford smart-phones. Even at the height of the Great Depression, most of the killing in [the Harlan County War](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAIM02kv0g) was perpetrated by capitalists, and their hired and government thugs, not by the oppressed mine workers. _Americans who do not already own guns wouldn’t be disposed to use them anyway._ _The civil strife scenario I envision is already happening to some extent._ A tyrannical violence-happy leader thwarted by Constitutional controls may encourage his followers to use violence in support of the leader. If civil disobedience rises in response to Trumpist malfeasance, expect the short-fingered sociopath to call on his supporters to arm themselves and “restore order.” ---
**Author:** ![CrazyTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@CrazyTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyTiger)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/262 "2017-12-06T09:17:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > In the wake of the recent Las Vegas shooting, I’m left asking this question… Why should people be allowed to own ANY guns? I don’t have anything against guns, and I don’t think guns are inherently evil or anything like that. **A gun is a tool, much like a shovel or an axe.** The difference is that while a shovel can be used for digging and an axe can be used for chopping wood, there’s only one use for a gun: killing things. And I honestly don’t believe that your average American (or you average anything else) really has a legitimate reason to possess a tool used for killing, because I don’t believe that your average American has a single legitimate reason to be killing anything. So, the solution seems to be simple: ban guns. All guns. Pistols, shotguns, hunting rifles – all illegal. > > So can anyone give me a compelling reason why ANY guns should be legal? Because frankly, I can’t think of a single one. A gun is a tool for killing people. A shovel is a tool for digging holes and an axe is a tool for cutting down trees. Do you see the difference? Personally I have no issue with Americans and their guns. Shooting each other in self defence is the national hobby! The problem is that Americans are uncivilised at home and then they take it abroad. By all means kill each other in the name of self defence and entertainment, but keep your mindless violence at home. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/263 "2017-12-06T14:20:57Z")
> [@CrazyTiger](#): > > A gun is a tool for killing people. A shovel is a tool for digging holes and an axe is a tool for cutting down trees. Do you see the difference?. I do actually, as you’d see if you read the line after the one you bolded. That’s why I started a thread questioning why guns need to be legal at all. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/264 "2017-12-06T18:12:14Z")
> [@CrazyTiger](#): > > A gun is a tool for killing people. A shovel is a tool for digging holes and an axe is a tool for cutting down trees. Do you see the difference? > . How about these axes? ttps://www.google.com/search?q=battle+axe&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjp4pGW\_fXXAhVS6WMKHT\_rDckQ\_AUICygC&biw=1317&bih=738#imgrc=CxHjUhGTj\_R3JM: But in fact a gun is not a tool for killing pople. Very very few guns, like one in 10000 ever kill a person. Many guns are designed for killing animals. Many guns are designed for target shooting (and would be quite poor at killing a person, some target pistols use the .22 short, which is hardly deadly), many guns are designed for skeet or trap shooting. Many guns are sold specicially for collectors aand are rarely shot. So, you are totally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/265 "2017-12-06T22:35:02Z")
I find all of the arguments about whether a gun is a “tool” or what it was “designed for” to be red herrings. The primary purpose of firearms is to enable a human to project physical force from a distance, full stop. They are the result of thousands of years of the evolution of humans’ ability to do this, ever since the first caveman realized that it was safer for him to throw a rock at his opponent from a distance than to engage him in hand-to-hand combat. Other results of this evolution are artillery and missiles. Firearms are the smallest and most portable of such devices, and so are the ideal choice for individual people to use, for the purpose of projecting physical force from a distance. Someday there will eventually be a better device. Maybe there will be something that can remotely stun a person from a distance and physically incapacitate them for a temporary period of time with no possibility whatsoever of harmful effects, is reliable close to 100% of the time, and can be fired quickly multiple times just as an automatic rifle can. Police and private citizens will use it to defend themselves from attackers; some bad people will use it to stun victims so they can bludgeon them or drag them off somewhere and rape them or whatever…and some people will continue to use old-fashioned firearms even when such a device exists. It’s all part of the evolution of technology and the human ability to manipulate the environment and each other. Any sports involving shooting at targets are an incidental offshoot of the concept of firearms, regardless of whether certain models of individual firearms may be specifically designed for target shooting. What the gun debate boils down to is simply, “to what degree should individual people be entrusted with the ability to project lethal physical force?” I personally believe that certain people should be and others shouldn’t be. I don’t believe that the ability should be limited to law enforcement officers and the military, hence I believe in the right of individuals to possess firearms. I also believe such individuals need to be vetted properly, and that the penalties for illegal possession of firearms should be extremely strict. But it has nothing to do with what the firearms are “designed for.” ---
**Author:** ![CrazyTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@CrazyTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyTiger)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/266 "2017-12-08T07:27:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But in fact a gun is not a tool for killing pople. Very very few guns, like one in 10000 ever kill a person. Many guns are designed for killing animals. > > Many guns are designed for target shooting (and would be quite poor at killing a person, some target pistols use the .22 short, which is hardly deadly), many guns are designed for skeet or trap shooting. Many guns are sold specicially for collectors aand are rarely shot. > > So, you are totally wrong. Uhuh. Hey look, I’m not against Americans and their gun worship. Every time an American shoots another citizen that is one less American. That can only be a good thing. The problem with Americans being uncivilised is that violence at home leads to violence abroad. There is nothing wrong with you all shooting each other, just leave your violence at home. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/267 "2017-12-08T19:22:52Z")
It’s reasonable and Constitutional to license qualified individuals to own weapons of any kind for which they have a demonstrated need. There are currently similar processes in place for explosives. For a hunting rifle, you first get a hunting license then a permit for a suitable hunting rifle. Same for competition weapons. Of course you need to demonstrate that you can safely store and transport the weapons. This would be inconvenient for those who want to hunt doves with an antique Gatling gun, but that’s not a show stopper. In addition there needs to be legislation establishing the responsibility of the owner and perhaps the manufacturer. The owner is ultimately responsible for the weapons’ use - even if it is “stolen”. The Constitution does not allow any and all people to walk around with any and all kinds of weapons. If you have a need for a weapon and can own it responsibly, you should be able to obtain one. This is possible well within the bounds of the constitution. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/268 "2017-12-08T19:25:34Z")
To answer the OP - there’s no real reason why guns should be legal, and plenty of countries ban them and get along just fine. But as long as gun ownership is in the Constitution, it’s in the Constitution, and should be upheld until or unless someone repeals it. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/269 "2017-12-09T06:00:06Z")
> [@CrazyTiger](#): > > Uhuh. > > Hey look, I’m not against Americans and their gun worship. Every time an American shoots another citizen that is one less American. That can only be a good thing. > > The problem with Americans being uncivilised is that violence at home leads to violence abroad. There is nothing wrong with you all shooting each other, just leave your violence at home. So, lemme get this straight… You’re equating American domestic _civilian_ ownership of firearms with the U.S. government’s _foreign_ Imperialism/Military Adventurism? That _my_ owning a gun is some kind of causative factor in the U.S. invading Iraq? Something like that? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/270 "2017-12-09T06:29:53Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > And I suspect that most of the guys capable of operating the serious death machinery - the planes, the missiles, the submarines - are going to be too well-educated and disciplined to go along with the “tyrant” in this scenario. What? We know you’re wrong here. See: Nazi Germany ---
**Author:** ![CrazyTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@CrazyTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyTiger)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/271 "2017-12-09T07:35:34Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > So, lemme get this straight… > > You’re equating American domestic _civilian_ ownership of firearms with the U.S. government’s _foreign_ Imperialism/Military Adventurism? > > That _my_ owning a gun is some kind of causative factor in the U.S. invading Iraq? Something like that? Yep. You nailed it. Violence at home leads to violence abroad. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/272 "2017-12-09T08:40:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What? > > We know you’re wrong here. See: Nazi Germany 1. It’s not possible to “know” that a _suspicion_ about a _hypothetical scenario_ is “wrong.” 2. The values of America are, in the main, different from Nazi Germany. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@CrazyTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyTiger)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/273 "2017-12-09T09:55:53Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > 1. It’s not possible to “know” that a _suspicion_ about a _hypothetical scenario_ is “wrong.” > > 2. **The values of America are, in the main, different from Nazi Germany**. Are American values that much different to Nazi Germany? A demagogue has risen to power on the promise to beat up and diminish minorities. Free speech is under constant attack while the white house is represented by Goebbels like figures, Huckerbee Sander and KellyAnne Conway. The US has long been a police state with regards law and order as it is. Trump voters know Trump is a conman and a thief. They voted for him because they wanted him to rape and pillage the rest of the world on their behalf. Trump is too stupid to have any aspirations in the way Hitler did. His instinct is to rape and plunder. Whether he and Hitler had the same motivations doesn’t really matter. What they wanted to do is the same. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/274 "2017-12-09T17:53:07Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Still sniping, I see. No sniping just pointing out that your “accepted fact” that when “a person attempts suicide and fails they tend not to try again” So do you have a cite or not? > [@](#): > > I noticed that comment of **Whack-a-Mole** ’s, considered it for a second, and realized that it obviously didn’t contradict my statement. Yes, a person who has attempted suicide once is more likely to try again than somebody who has never attempted it - because the average person who has not attempted suicide _is not experiencing circumstances that drive them to commit suicide_. So yeah, they’re less likely to reach for a gun than somebody who was at some point in dire circumstances and very well might still be. Honestly, this goes basically without saying. Big shiny duh. > > Of course this doesn’t disprove the idea that suicide recidivism rates might be low (though obviously not as low as that of people who are thrilled with their lives). I mean, obviously. > > In the united states, the [popular methods of suicide](http://lostallhope.com/suicide-statistics/us-methods-suicide) are firearms, hanging, and poisoning (including with drug overdoses). Falls comprise only 2.5% of suicides; transportation methods only 0.4%. > > Now, I’m not certain, but I get the impression that this cite lists only successful attempts - explaining why cutting only is the cause in 1.8% of suicides, despite being so popular from a pop culture perspective. > > If I were to extrapolate from the data, I would say that firearms and hanging are the big winners they are because they are pretty reliable ways to off yourself, as opposed to cutting and overdoses. The fact that hopping off buildings and jumping in front of trains rate so incredibly low suggests to me that almost nobody is trying them - probably because you have to leave your home to do so. (And possibly travel to a different city - I probably live in one of the few cities in my state with tall buildings, and we still don’t have a subway.) You would probably be extrapolating wrong. Firearms are a popular form of suicide in the USA because they are reliable and available. Our suicide rate is pretty average for wealthy industrialized countries. Those countries have an incredibly low gun suicide rate because, well not as many guns floating around. But they jump off of buildings and hang themselves and poison themselves, etc. enough to make up for their lack of access to guns. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/275 "2017-12-09T17:54:12Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > No. I said I’m tired of this. > > Honestly I’m tired enough of this to say fuck it. Let gun owners kill themselves. Let them murder other people with impunity, if they get the itch, as happens daily. Let the country burn in a blaze of muzzle flashes. Death to all! IOW, you got nothing but vague notions about what the facts are based on what you saw on some anti-gun show? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/276 "2017-12-10T06:20:37Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > 1. It’s not possible to “know” that a _suspicion_ about a _hypothetical scenario_ is “wrong.” > > 2. The values of America are, in the main, different from Nazi Germany. You asserted something. I gave an example showing your assertion is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@CrazyTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyTiger)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/277 "2017-12-10T06:30:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No sniping just pointing out that your “accepted fact” that when “a person attempts suicide and fails they tend not to try again” > > So do you have a cite or not? > > You would probably be extrapolating wrong. Firearms are a popular form of suicide in the USA because they are reliable and available. Our suicide rate is pretty average for wealthy industrialized countries. Those countries have an incredibly low gun suicide rate because, well not as many guns floating around. But they jump off of buildings and hang themselves and poison themselves, etc. enough to make up for their lack of access to guns. The US has the highest suicide rate of any developed nation with the exception of Japan and France (roughly the same). Obviously to call the US a developed nation is being loose with the truth. The US murder rate is 15 times that of Australia (a civilised nation). You should have a look at the actual facts. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/278 "2017-12-10T18:11:16Z")
> [@CrazyTiger](#): > > The US has the highest suicide rate of any developed nation with the exception of Japan and France (roughly the same). Obviously to call the US a developed nation is being loose with the truth > The US murder rate is 15 times that of Australia (a civilised nation). > > You should have a look at the actual facts. So, South Korea, Russia, Belgium, Hungary & Sweden arent “developed” nations now?:dubious: Australia has a murder rate of .98, USA of 4.88, that is five times, not 15. (Overall the USA murder rate falls squarely in the middle of all nations) _You should have a look at the actual facts._ ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/279 "2017-12-10T18:21:08Z")
> [@CrazyTiger](#): > > The US has the highest suicide rate of any developed nation with the exception of Japan and France (roughly the same). From the [World Health Organization](http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.MHSUICIDE), 2015 rates of suicide (per 100,000, for both sexes): South Korea: 28.3 Belgium: 20.5 Japan: 19.7 France: 16.9 Austria: 16.4 Finland: 16.3 Sweden: 15.4 Switzerland: 15.1 **USA: 14.3** Portugal: 13.7 Germany: 13.4 Iceland: 13.1 New Zealand: 12.6 Canada: 12.3 Denmark: 12.3 Netherlands: 11.9 Australia: 11.8 Ireland: 11.7 Luxembourg: 11.1 Norway: 10.9 Spain: 8.5 United Kingdom: 8.5 Italy: 7.9 Greece: 4.3 Depending on your definition of “developed” you could also include various former Eastern European states: Romania: 11.7; Czechia, 13.7; Poland, 22.3; and so on. The Baltic States seem especially gloomy: Estonia: 18.9; Latvia: 21.7; Lithuania: 32.7. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154/280 "2017-12-11T04:10:37Z")
> [@CrazyTiger](#): > > The US has the highest suicide rate of any developed nation with the exception of Japan and France (roughly the same). Obviously to call the US a developed nation is being loose with the truth. > > You should have a look at the actual facts. I can’t believe people are still confused about this. I thought I established this fact back during the sandy hook gun control debates. I think you might be looking at the wrong facts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-guns-be-legal/798154.md?page=15)