# Why should I care about gay marriage?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 20, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766 "2014-02-20T02:37:39Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 11
### Author:  [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/202 "2014-02-24T22:35:30Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> No, I had lots of conversations with almost all of them. I went to gay bars with them and they explained the dynamics.
And naturally that ends the discussion right there! There are absolutely no gay men in long term relationships. I personally am in the 13th year of a casual one night stand with the same guy. Several other members here have been having a fling with the same guy for over 20 years. Clearly the experience of your friends is the only one that is possible.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/203 "2014-02-24T22:36:38Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> This is an unsupported generalization. There have been many societies where homosexuality was openly practiced and not regarded as shameful in the least, but that should not be confused with what you are talking about.
If you don’t want confusion, why are you bringing up an objection that has nothing to do with what I said? I didn’t say anything about the practice of homosexuality. I was talking about legal recognition for same-sex marriage.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/204 "2014-02-24T22:39:32Z")
> [@Antinor01](#):
>
> And naturally that ends the discussion right there! There are absolutely no gay men in long term relationships. I personally am in the 13th year of a casual one night stand with the same guy. Several other members here have been having a fling with the same guy for over 20 years. Clearly the experience of your friends is the only one that is possible.
They were educated men who lived in the homosexual environment all the time. They were quite knowledgeable about it and told me quite a lot (more than I really needed to know, actually).
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/205 "2014-02-24T22:40:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> My point, as you know, is that there is a mechanism by which they could enjoy all those things you outline.
Not an easy one.
> [@](#):
>
> But God forbid that the gay community actually focus on the the legal benefits and privileges they’ve claimed they’ve wanted all along and argue for another type of civil union that would gain them that—without contorting the meaning of a word and changing an institution that has been a cornerstone of our society.
>
> No, that’s just beyond the pale.:rolleyes:
Yes, it really does. Your position is inherently insulting to gay couples, by legally assigning them a lower status that straight couples. That’s an inherently insulting - to say nothing of unequal - position.
> [@](#):
>
> Maybe they’re not. Like anything else, it depends what criteria you use. If the criteria is that you create the possibility of children being raised in the ideal environment, then, no, they’re not as good. As you know, I favor pretty much all you do, including gay adoption. I personally know gay singles and gay couples who are terrific parents, but that dies not negate the point that the ideal environment for raising a child is in a loving home with a married mother and father.
This is objectively false.
> [@](#):
>
> As far as the public recognition, if you believe that SS couples are every bit as deserving of all the good associations that come with the traditional meaning of the word, then whatever they call it, they would prove themselves to be every bit as worthy, right? But your argument here is one of wanting to get a free ride on the coattails of traditional marriage. I really think it reveals the doubt the gay community has about itself. So rather than allowing SS Unions receive the positive respect and acclaim they deserve (and I personally think will follow) they say “fuck it—grab those coattails and don’t let go”.
We \*have \*proven ourselves to be every bit as worthy. That’s why we’re demanding what we deserve: equal recognition.
> [@](#):
>
> I remember when the argument for SS inclusion and acceptance had the moral high ground. Doesn’t seem that long ago…
I remember when I used to defend you has more liberal than most of the country on the subject of gay rights. Funny how times have changed, isn’t it?
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/206 "2014-02-24T22:41:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> If you don’t want confusion, why are you bringing up an objection that has nothing to do with what I said? I didn’t say anything about the practice of homosexuality. I was talking about legal recognition for same-sex marriage.
It is not necessary if what is desired is ‘acceptance’ of the practice of homosexuality (Plato, anyone?). The two are not related. If anything, it is causing people to be \*less \*accepting.
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### Author:  [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/207 "2014-02-24T22:41:55Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> They were educated men who lived in the homosexual environment all the time. They were quite knowledgeable about it and told me quite a lot (more than I really needed to know, actually).
I totally agree. What those particular people told you is the only possibility. The experience of college students in the 60’s is the end all, be all of human sexuality.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/208 "2014-02-24T22:42:08Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> It is not necessary if what is desired is ‘acceptance’ of the practice of homosexuality. the two are not related. If anything, it is causing people to be \*less \*accepting.
People have never been more accepting of gay rights and gay couples than they are right now in Western society. At best, this is wrong and kind of disingenuous.
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> They were quite knowledgeable about it and told me quite a lot (more than I really needed to know, actually).
I’m always entertained when people who say they’re repulsed by homosexuality go on and on about gay sex.
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### Author:  [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steely_Dan_Fan)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/209 "2014-02-24T22:42:28Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> We as a culture, as a society, collectively establish customs, not some demented judge alone.
So…you’re fine with same-sex marriage now? Because that’s what’s going on: we, as a society, collectively, are changing marriage customs.
Legal and judicial rulings merely _reflect_ this change in sensibility; they are not determining it. How is this difficult for you to understand?
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### Author:  [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/210 "2014-02-24T22:47:27Z")
I mostly feel sorry for \*\*Melchior \*\*because after forty years he still hasn’t figured out that his gay “friends” in college were just making sport of him. Poor sap.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/211 "2014-02-24T22:52:29Z")
> [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](#):
>
> So…you’re fine with same-sex marriage now? Because that’s what’s going on: we, as a society, collectively, are changing marriage customs. Legal and judicial rulings merely _reflect_ this change in sensibility; they are not determining it. How is this difficult for you to understand?
This is simply false. Judges have repeatedly ruled against laws supporting traditional marriage, including constitutional amendments enacted by referendum. Most of us think it is some kind of sick joke. Even the ancient Greeks would laugh at this!
I support the proposal that I have hear tossed around to make judicial rulings subject to referendum. The notion that a single person has more authority than the electorate is ludicrous.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/212 "2014-02-24T22:55:06Z")
In some states it’s being done by judges. In others, it’s elected officials. And if you look at polls, you see there’s very wide support for it among the public - so you can expect more of both. The whole “aaah! judges!” bugaboo is getting pretty tired.
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> I support the proposal that I have hear tossed around to make judicial rulings subject to referendum.
You know who you wouldn’t hear that from? The people who wrote the Constitution. This is never going to happen, and there’s a reason the judiciary is part of the system.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/213 "2014-02-24T22:58:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> In some states it’s being done by judges. In others, it’s elected officials. And if you look at polls, you see there’s very wide support for it among the public - so you can expect more of both. The whole “aaah! judges!” bugaboo is getting pretty tired.
>
> You know who you wouldn’t hear that from? The people who wrote the Constitution. This is never going to happen, and there’s a reason the judiciary is part of the system.
Checks and balances. But the framers used this language: ‘Consent of the governed’.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent\_of\_the\_governed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_of_the_governed)
This replaced the previous concept of the divine right of kings.
The judiciary is out of control. They cannot seem to understand the simplest arguments and when a straw man argument is before them.
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### Author:  [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/214 "2014-02-24T22:59:24Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> I support the proposal that I have hear tossed around to make judicial rulings subject to referendum. The notion that a single person has more authority than the electorate is ludicrous.
The CONSTITUTION has more authority than the electorate. And that’s not ludicrous at all. Thank God for judges who save us from the people sometimes.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/215 "2014-02-24T22:59:26Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Checks and balances.
Yes. The judiciary is one of those.
> [@](#):
>
> But the framers used this language: ‘Consent of the governed’.
Not with regard to judicial rulings that go against the will of the majority. They didn’t think much of the general public, you know.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/216 "2014-02-24T23:06:13Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> This is simply false. Judges have repeatedly ruled against laws supporting traditional marriage, including constitutional amendments enacted by referendum. Most of us think it is some kind of sick joke.
I’m not sure who “us” is in this sentence, but if you mean “Americans,” most of us favor SSM now.
> [@](#):
>
> Even the ancient Greeks would laugh at this!
Yes, but mostly because we let women and poor people vote.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/217 "2014-02-24T23:06:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Yes. The judiciary is one of those.
>
> Not with regard to judicial rulings that go against the will of the majority. They didn’t think much of the general public, you know.
Well, they owned slaves and women were not allowed to vote. Anything else you care to bring up?
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/218 "2014-02-24T23:08:12Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> I’m not sure who “us” is in this sentence, but if you mean “Americans,” most of us favor SSM now.
I am not among them. Some people are more or less \*resigned \*to it because they have lost faith in the rationality of the judiciary and consider the fight not worth the effort. Many of us feel that judges have no authority to change our culture and traditions when attacked by such flimsy arguments.
For the record, I also oppose the constant chipping away at Roe vs Wade by state legisatures.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/219 "2014-02-24T23:10:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Why?
>
> It’s a corner stone of society. It lays the groundwork for the ideal environment for raising children. While I’m sure it was contemplated, maybe even tried, no societies—even those very embracing of homosexuality, like Ancient Greece—found it wise to embrace SS marriage. And since we can have SS couples tap into the same set of legal benefits and privileges, it’s not even needed. So, why should we strip marriage of it’s 1 man + 1 woman componentry?
Same-sex marriage only affects these concerns in a beneficial way. Same sex couples also raise children. Those children deserve the protection of having married parents.
And I oppose stripping marriage of it’s 1 man + 1 woman componentry (excellent made-up word!). Men should have the right to marry women. They should also have the right to marry men, and women to marry women. No stripping of any sort of componentry is required.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/220 "2014-02-24T23:10:32Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> I am not among them.
Yeah, I kinda picked up on that.
> [@](#):
>
> Some people are more or less \*resigned \*to it because they have lost faith in the rationality of the judiciary and consider the fight not worth the effort.
Yes, but those people are a minority. Most people think SSM should be legalized.
> [@](#):
>
> Many of us feel that judges have no authority to change our culture and traditions when attacked by such flimsy arguments.
Flimsy? Anti-marriage laws cost [this woman](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/nyregion/edith-windsor-gay-widow-revels-in-supreme-court-fight.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) over 300,000 dollars. Can you present an argument why she should have to pay over a quarter of a million dollars just because the person she spent her life with was another woman?
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/221 "2014-02-24T23:11:29Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> I support the proposal that I have hear tossed around to make judicial rulings subject to referendum.
Same-sex marriage has now won several referendums and polling indicates that it could win quite a few more.
Your propaganda is out of date.
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