# Why should I care about gay marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766 "2014-02-20T02:37:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/422 "2014-02-26T18:57:09Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > No, those are traditional. We don’t need any ‘workaround’. Aaaand…the wheels on the bus go round and round. We should keep things the way I believe they should be because I think they’re traditional, and they’re traditional because they’re the way I think they should be. Never mind that “traditional” marriage has changed repeatedly over the centuries, or that it varies from society to society and generation to generation. Never mind that I cannot even explain why “traditional” automatically means “good.” Never mind that what is traditional is demonstrably not always what is best for a society. Nope, forget all that. I say (my conception of) what is traditional is the best and be damned to anyone who disagrees. ETA: > [@](#): > > judges are morons who buy these idiotic arguments. I think the judiciary in this country are collectively the stupidest group of individuals alive. You are, as always, entitled to your opinion, however utterly wrong it may be. . ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/423 "2014-02-26T18:57:13Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It’s unnecessary to accomplish the goals stated by the complainers, and the methods used to attain legitimacy concern me very deeply. The courts are being abused, and judges are morons who buy these idiotic arguments. I think the judiciary in this country are collectively the stupidest group of individuals alive. Since the question of gay marriage is pretty decisively being answered by both the judicial courts and the court of public opinion, what do you plan to do? Assuming that things continue as they are, and in the next few years large majorities support gay marriage (which will probably be legal everywhere), what are you afraid will happen? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/424 "2014-02-26T18:59:27Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It’s unnecessary to accomplish the goals stated by the complainers, The goals are to BE MARRIED. So yes, it’s necessary. And you are dead wrong when you claim that all the benefits of marriage are available to people through other means. That’s bullshit. And if it were true, there’d be no reason to get married in the first place, even for heteros. (It’s funny that opposition to gay marriage has created a backdoor, no pun intended, way of weakening hetero marriage by prompting employers and governments to give benefits to couples without the necessity of being married to get around it though). > [@](#): > > and the methods used to attain legitimacy concern me very deeply. That’s an entirely different issue. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/425 "2014-02-26T19:02:34Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The goals are to BE MARRIED. So yes, it’s necessary. > > And you are dead wrong when you claim that all the benefits of marriage are available to people through other means. That’s bullshit. And if it were true, there’d be no reason to get married in the first place, even for heteros. > > (It’s funny that opposition to gay marriage has created a backdoor, no pun intended, way of weakening hetero marriage by prompting employers and governments to give benefits to couples without the necessity of being married to get around it though). > > That’s an entirely different issue. I didn’t say ‘all’, but most are, the most important ones in any event. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/426 "2014-02-26T19:03:33Z")
**Melchior** , are you sure the judges are all idiots and you know better? I’m not all that impressed with your grasp of Constitutional law so far. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/427 "2014-02-26T19:04:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Since the question of gay marriage is pretty decisively being answered by both the judicial courts and the court of public opinion, what do you plan to do? Assuming that things continue as they are, and in the next few years large majorities support gay marriage (which will probably be legal everywhere), what are you afraid will happen? The ‘fallacy of inevitability’. ‘Appeal to popular opinion’. Sorry, neither is a valid argument. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/428 "2014-02-26T19:05:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Melchior** , are you sure the judges are all idiots and you know better? I’m not all that impressed with your grasp of Constitutional law so far. I have read some of the most absurd, convoluted ‘logic’ in decisions written by judges. It is nauseating. This issue is \*not \*one of ‘rights being denied to a minority’ or ‘unfair discrimination’ and I cannot believe that any judge falls for that sort of argument… ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/429 "2014-02-26T19:08:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Since the question of gay marriage is pretty decisively being answered by both the judicial courts and the court of public opinion, what do you plan to do? Assuming that things continue as they are, and in the next few years large majorities support gay marriage (which will probably be legal everywhere), what are you afraid will happen? > [@Melchior](#): > > The ‘fallacy of inevitability’. ‘Appeal to popular opinion’. Sorry, neither is a valid argument. Try again. Please read the post again. There’s not an argument in favor, there’s an acknowledgement that you’re likely on the losing side of this fight. Assuming that you are, and SSM becomes legal everywhere, \* what are you afraid will happen?\*. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/430 "2014-02-26T19:09:37Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Please read the post again. There’s not an argument in favor, there’s an acknowledgement that you’re likely on the losing side of this fight. Assuming that you are, and SSM becomes legal everywhere, \* what are you afraid will happen?\*. The assertion ‘you might as well give up because you are going to lose’ is used as a psychological ploy. It doesn’t work with me. It’s not an argument. I am not afraid of what will happen _thereafter_, I am afraid what will happen in doing so: the loss of the electorate’s sovereign authority. Judges have no right to override referenda. None! Thee were constitutional amendments, and thus they remake the constitution, and cannot be ‘unconstitutional’! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/431 "2014-02-26T19:10:13Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I have read some of the most absurd, convoluted ‘logic’ in decisions written by judges. It is nauseating. We already know how you feel about it personally. Based on what I’ve read in this thread I’m very skeptical that you understand the legal reasoning behind those decisions. Tell me how this legal battle is different from the Supreme Court overturning bans on interracial marriage in the 1960s, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/432 "2014-02-26T19:10:44Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I have read some of the most absurd, convoluted ‘logic’ in decisions written by judges. It is nauseating. > > This issue is \*not \*one of ‘rights being denied to a minority’ or ‘unfair discrimination’ and I cannot believe that any judge falls for that sort of argument… What do you think the issue is? Why do you think gay couples, especially those of us who have together for over a decade (and in many cases 2, 3, 4 or more decades) are seeking the right to a legal marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/433 "2014-02-26T19:14:35Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > What do you think the issue is? Why do you think gay couples, especially those of us who have together for over a decade (and in many cases 2, 3, 4 or more decades) are seeking the right to a legal marriage? Why don’t you tell me? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/434 "2014-02-26T19:17:00Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > This issue is \*not \*one of ‘rights being denied to a minority’ or ‘unfair discrimination’ and I cannot believe that any judge falls for that sort of argument… And what do you think the issue is? Religious freedom? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/435 "2014-02-26T19:17:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We already know how you feel about it personally. Based on what I’ve read in this thread I’m very skeptical that you understand the legal reasoning behind those decisions. Tell me how this legal battle is different from the Supreme Court overturning bans on interracial marriage in the 1960s, for example. Those laws did not reflect thousands of years of human history and were plainly racist. I don’t know whether it has actually not been ‘illegal’ for men to marry men, or women to marry women, so far as I know. It was ‘common knowledge’ that this was not a marriage. It was ‘understood’ what marriage was and that ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/436 "2014-02-26T19:17:46Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > The assertion ‘you might as well give up because you are going to lose’ is used as a psychological ploy. It doesn’t work with me. It’s not an argument. > > I am not afraid of what will happen _thereafter_, I am afraid what will happen in doing so: the loss of the electorate’s sovereign authority. Judges have no right to override referenda. None! Thee were constitutional amendments, and thus they remake the constitution, and cannot be ‘unconstitutional’! Except that state constitutions cannot override the federal constitution and the 14th amendment that says > [@14th Amendment](#): > > nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Therefore _ **specifically excluding a demographic** _ from a legal matter with a state-level constitutional amendment is null and void. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/437 "2014-02-26T19:18:01Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I am not afraid of what will happen _thereafter_, I am afraid what will happen in doing so: the loss of the electorate’s sovereign authority. Judges have no right to override referenda. None! Thee were constitutional amendments, and thus they remake the constitution, and cannot be ‘unconstitutional’! So if your only concern is Constitutional (and, respectfully, you have a lot to learn about Constitutional Law) and the sovereignty of the electorate, why bring up the whole “tradition” thing? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/438 "2014-02-26T19:18:22Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > The ‘fallacy of inevitability’. ‘Appeal to popular opinion’. Sorry, neither is a valid argument. Try again. It’s not an argument, dude. I was asking you a question. If you don’t want to answer, just say so, but don’t play these pretend philosophy games. Sometimes people ask questions because they actually want to know your answer. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/439 "2014-02-26T19:18:33Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > And what do you think the issue is? Religious freedom? There is no legitimate argument. None. The ‘issue’ is a Straw Man. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/440 "2014-02-26T19:19:02Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Those laws did not reflect thousands of years of human history and were plainly racist. > > I don’t know whether it has actually not been ‘illegal’ for men to marry men, or women to marry women, so far as I know. It was ‘common knowledge’ that this was not a marriage. It was ‘understood’ what marriage was and that ain’t it. So you have no legal argument, just an appeal to tradition. That’s not how the law works. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/441 "2014-02-26T19:19:23Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I didn’t say ‘all’, but most are, the most important ones in any event. Nope. There are plenty only available to married couples. And to replicate the rest without marriage can require lots of paperwork and thousands of dollars in legal fees. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766.md?page=23)