# Why should I care about gay marriage?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 20, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766 "2014-02-20T02:37:39Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/122 "2014-02-24T21:18:14Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Homosexuals are not a ‘minority’.
I KNEW it! They’re EVERYWHERE!
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/123 "2014-02-24T21:19:10Z")
And they think you’re kinda cute, too. 😉
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/124 "2014-02-24T21:21:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> In what way?
>
> That’s kind of true. So the debate isn’t whether this is discrimination or not - it plainly is - it’s whether the discrimination makes sense and serves any kind of purpose or public interest. It doesn’t.
It doesn’t have to. It’s a custom. Customs have some force. Most laws are ultimately based on custom and nothing else. Our law is based on British law and Roman law. You must understand what I mean by ‘custom’ here is not the same thing as throwing rice at a wedding ceremony.
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### Author:  [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/125 "2014-02-24T21:22:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Just kidding. The technical term for this argument is “bullshit.”
No, his argument is perfectly right. It’s just pointless.
> [@](#):
>
> You can read _Brown v. Board of Ed_ to find out how impressed the Supreme Court was by this logic 60 years ago.
I don’t think the defense in Brown argued that racial segregation was part of the definition of public education.
> [@](#):
>
> The claim, of course, is that it’s unfair that a heterosexual couple in love can get married and have the state recognize their relationship and a gay or lesbian couple can’t do the same thing.
Yes - which is a little different from saying marriage laws discriminate. Of course they do - all laws discriminate in some way. You have to show that the discrimination is somehow unfair.
> [@](#):
>
> Citing the dictionary and the Bible - and when that fails, saying “Because I said so!” - doesn’t advance your argument.
He didn’t say that either.
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### Author:  [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/126 "2014-02-24T21:23:03Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> It doesn’t have to. It’s a custom. Customs have some force. Most laws are ultimately based on custom and nothing else. Our law is based on British law and Roman law.
It ought to though, dont’ you think? We should change laws that are unfair.
We may not be OBLIGATED to, but we should.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/127 "2014-02-24T21:23:06Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Marriage laws do not unfairly discriminate against homosexuals. Homosexuals are free to marry any member of the opposite sex they choose.
There was a time, not very long ago, when marriage laws did not discriminate on the basis of race, either. Within other restrictions that are not in question and still apply, a white person was free to marry any other white person, and a black person was free to marry any other black person.
So what do you think could have been the problem with that?
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### Author:  [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/128 "2014-02-24T21:24:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> And they think you’re kinda cute, too. 😉
You’re one too, aren’t you?
I’ll never got to the gym again! They’re all staring at me!
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/129 "2014-02-24T21:26:24Z")
No, I’m straight but not narrow, as the stickers say.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/130 "2014-02-24T21:28:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> There was a time, not very long ago, when marriage laws did not discriminate on the basis of race, either. Within other restrictions that are not in question and still apply, a white person was free to marry any other white person, and a black person was free to marry any other black person.
>
> So what do you think could have been the problem with that?
Those were hardly widespread laws and are quite different, as you know. (But it would be nice to have some blondes for the next generation, you know!)
I have no problem with homosexuals or homosexuality, but marriage is something else altogether.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/131 "2014-02-24T21:29:08Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#):
>
> It ought to though, dont’ you think? We should change laws that are unfair.
>
> We may not be OBLIGATED to, but we should.
What about bigamy? What about marrying your sister? your niece? your dog?
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/132 "2014-02-24T21:31:03Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Those were hardly widespread laws and are quite different, as you know.
No, I don’t know. In what way are they quite different? Please explain.
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### Author:  [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/133 "2014-02-24T21:31:26Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> I have no problem with homosexuals or homosexuality, but marriage is something else altogether.
Uh huh.
edit:
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> What about bigamy? What about marrying your sister? your niece? your dog?
Wha? Mechior, is there something you want to get off your chest?
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/134 "2014-02-24T21:31:43Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> It is a straw man argument to complain that they are unfairly discriminated against, or that they are an ‘oppressed minority’.
I’m not sure you understand what a “straw man” argument is - it doesn’t really make sense applied to this argument. A straw man is where you invent an argument for your opponent, and then argue against that, instead of what he’s actually said. “Gay marriage should be legal, because it creates a severe and unnecessary hardship on gay people,” cannot be a straw man argument, because it does not reference anyone else’s position.
> [@](#):
>
> What about bigamy?
What about it?
> [@](#):
>
> What many of us object to is the attempt to circumvent custom through judges.
And what many of us object to is placing “custom” above the health, happiness, and material wealth of an inoffensive minority. What value is the “custom” of exclusively heterosexual marriage? How is this value compromised by allowing gay people to wed?
> [@](#):
>
> Marriage is a special relationship ultimately based upon biology and procreation, not romantic feelings. It has nothing to do with romantic attachments, and until the 19th century arranged marriages were the norm. My grandmother may have had an arranged marriage (I am not sure).
This is trivially easy to disprove, by the simple expedient of pointing out that we freely grant marriage licenses to couple who are unable or incapable of reproducing. If a man with a vasectomy can marry a woman with a hysterectomy, why shouldn’t two men be allowed to marry? Neither couple is any more likely than the other to produce biological offspring.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/135 "2014-02-24T21:31:49Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> What about bigamy? What about marrying your sister? your niece? your dog?
What does that have to do with gay marriage? If you want to talk about those things, start another thread.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/136 "2014-02-24T21:32:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> No, I don’t know. In what way are they quite different? Please explain.
Black men and Asian men and white men are all men and not women.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/137 "2014-02-24T21:32:55Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> I have no problem with homosexuals or homosexuality, but marriage is something else altogether.
I do not find this statement convincing.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/138 "2014-02-24T21:33:21Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Those were hardly widespread laws and are quite different, as you know. (But it would be nice to have some blondes for the next generation, you know!)
>
> I have no problem with homosexuals or homosexuality, but marriage is something else altogether.
There are also people that have no problem with black people, but (for them) interracial marriage is something else altogether. Thankfully, the law doesn’t pay attention to old bigots like that. The law should also ignore bigotry against homosexual couples.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/139 "2014-02-24T21:35:37Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> I’m not sure you understand what a “straw man” argument is - it doesn’t really make sense applied to this argument. A straw man is where you invent an argument for your opponent, and then argue against that, instead of what he’s actually said. “Gay marriage should be legal, because it creates a severe and unnecessary hardship on gay people,” cannot be a straw man argument, because it does not reference anyone else’s position.
>
> What about it?
>
> And what many of us object to is placing “custom” above the health, happiness, and material wealth of an inoffensive minority. What value is the “custom” of exclusively heterosexual marriage? How is this value compromised by allowing gay people to wed?
>
> This is trivially easy to disprove, by the simple expedient of pointing out that we freely grant marriage licenses to couple who are unable or incapable of reproducing. If a man with a vasectomy can marry a woman with a hysterectomy, why shouldn’t two men be allowed to marry? Neither couple is any more likely than the other to produce biological offspring.
I said ‘ultimately based on’. In the past, couples were engaged first, and when a child was conceived they could marry. Offspring (especially males) were important, particularly after the Black Death reduced the population of Europe by roughly half. King Henry VIII went through several wives, you may recall, because he wanted a son.
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### Author:  [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/140 "2014-02-24T21:35:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> What does that have to do with gay marriage? If you want to talk about those things, start another thread.
Much like when religious people wonder how it is that atheists can not believe in a god and simultaneously not be thieving murdering rapists, I get uncomfortable and nervous when anti-marriage equalists start talking about bestiality. Why is _that_ where they jump to?
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/141 "2014-02-24T21:36:42Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> It doesn’t have to. It’s a custom.
You couldn’t be more wrong. A law that discriminates (especially against a protected class) is not going to survive a legal challenge if customs are the only basis for the law. Perhaps you should read up on concepts like strict scrutiny - concepts that actually determine how courts evaluate cases like this.
> [@](#):
>
> Customs have some force.
Customs usually do not have the force of law.
> [@](#):
>
> Most laws are ultimately based on custom and nothing else.
Please explain the customs that support speed limits, local zoning laws, income tax rates…
> [@lance\_strongarm](#):
>
> No, his argument is perfectly right. It’s just pointless.
Yes, it’s technically correct and has zero relevance to the subject, which is obvious to everyone who has ever used the argument. That’s why it’s bullshit.
> [@](#):
>
> You have to show that the discrimination is somehow unfair.
:rolleyes: I already said this in the exact same post you are quoting.
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#):
>
> Wha? Mechior, is there something you want to get off your chest?
Some Santorum, perhaps.
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