# Why should I care about gay marriage?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 20, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766 "2014-02-20T02:37:39Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 9
### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/162 "2014-02-24T21:52:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> Yes, couples, married or not and not always couples, do often have sex, sometimes of a kind that other people think of as icky. Is that your point somehow? And where do you address race as not being a valid basis for banning marriage?
No, the word ‘gender’ is wrong. Men and women are of different _sexes_, not genders. You’re using the wrong word. ‘Gender’ is a term used in grammar and linguistics (der Mann, masculie, das Haus, neuter, die Quelle, feminine).
---
### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/163 "2014-02-24T21:53:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Anybody else think it’s ironic that **Melchior** thinks the dictionary is the highest authority in this discussion but he doesn’t seem to care that polyamory and bigamy aren’t the same thing?
Laws forbidding multiple simultaneous spouses are bigamy laws. I used the wrong word. I understand the difference.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/164 "2014-02-24T21:54:27Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> No, the word ‘gender’ is wrong. Men and women are of different _sexes_, not genders. You’re using the wrong word. ‘Gender’ is a term used in grammar and linguistics (der Mann, das Haus, die Quelle).
Once again, **Melchior** rewrites the dictionary at random.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/165 "2014-02-24T21:54:53Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> I am simply pointing out the consequences of just throwing out the notion of custom having any force. Baby, bathwater…etc.
Except, you’re not. You haven’t provided a single possible negative outcome of allowing SSM. You’ve thrown out a couple ludicrous scenarios, but haven’t provided any logical connection between them and SSM. There are a number of strong argument for why SSM is a good idea. Not all of these arguments apply to bestiality or incest, and both bestiality and incest have strong arguments _against_ them that do not apply to SSM.
> [@](#):
>
> Bigamy laws have no stronger foundation than custom.
Again, this is incorrect. Bigamy is fraud. It’s entering into two contracts, both of which stipulate that you will not enter into any similar contracts with other people. Laws against bigamy stem from property rights, not custom - a bigamist is effectively stealing from both spouses by offering them both the same portion of his assets.
---
### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/166 "2014-02-24T21:55:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> I still don’t understand. In what way, which is obvious to you, is race not a valid basis for banning marriage while gender is?
For marriage you just need one male and one female. That’s it. The coming together of man and woman is race/skin color agnostic.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/167 "2014-02-24T21:55:31Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> The social value in recognizing and encouraging long term pair-bonding.
> An easy way to share assets between a couple.
> An easy way to designate next-of-kin in legal and medical decisions.
> Establishing a clear inheritance claim for the survivor of a long term relationship.
> And, of course, love.
>
> What are the values you perceive in matrimony? Why shouldn’t gay people be allowed to partake in those values?
The law does not require love in a marriage.
For most of human history, and still in many cultures today, love does not enter into it.
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/168 "2014-02-24T21:55:43Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> No, the word ‘gender’ is wrong. Men and women are of different _sexes_, not genders. You’re using the wrong word. ‘Gender’ is a term used in grammar and linguistics (der Mann, masculie, das Haus, neuter, die Quelle, feminine).
What dictionary are you getting this stuff? The word “gender” has multiple definitions, and in every dictionary I’ve looked at online in the last five minutes, one of the definitions is “the state of being male or female”, or something equivalent.
Words don’t just mean what you want them to mean.
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/169 "2014-02-24T21:56:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> For marriage you just need one male and one female. That’s it. The coming together of man and woman is race/skin color agnostic.
Marriage should also be (and is for many people) sex/gender agnostic.
---
### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/170 "2014-02-24T21:57:09Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Except, you’re not. You haven’t provided a single possible negative outcome of allowing SSM. You’ve thrown out a couple ludicrous scenarios, but haven’t provided any logical connection between them and SSM. There are a number of strong argument for why SSM is a good idea. Not all of these arguments apply to bestiality or incest, and both bestiality and incest have strong arguments _against_ them that do not apply to SSM.
>
> Again, this is incorrect. Bigamy is fraud. It’s entering into two contracts, both of which stipulate that you will not enter into any similar contracts with other people. Laws against bigamy stem from property rights, not custom - a bigamist is effectively stealing from both spouses by offering them both the same portion of his assets.
They are no more ‘ludicrous’ than same-sex marriage. Who was talking about bestiality? You might marry an animal and remain celibate. There are couples who marry and remain celibate.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/171 "2014-02-24T21:57:25Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> The law does not require love in a marriage.
Neither does it require procreation, so why should it be restricted only to opposite sex couples?
> [@](#):
>
> For most of human history, and still in many cultures today, love does not enter into it.
So what? Why should that determine marriage laws right now, in this country?
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### Author:  [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/172 "2014-02-24T21:58:36Z")
Gotta love people like Melchior. All the highlights are being hit that have been argued out here and elsewhere at length…slippery slope, custom, ‘That’s what the word means!’, etc.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/173 "2014-02-24T21:58:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> What dictionary are you getting this stuff? The word “gender” has multiple definitions, and in every dictionary I’ve looked at online in the last five minutes, one of the definitions is “the state of being male or female”, or something equivalent.
>
> Words don’t just mean what you want them to mean.
Dictionaries have picked up this ignorant usage. They record erroneous usage.
---
### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/174 "2014-02-24T21:59:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> For marriage you just need one male and one female. That’s it. The coming together of man and woman is race/skin color agnostic.
Here’s a different version: you need two adults who want to get married. The race consideration used to be very important, now it isn’t. The gender consideration used to be important, and now that’s changing. See how this works?
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Dictionaries have picked up this ignorant usage. They record erroneous usage.
Dictionaries record how words are used - and the meaning of a word changes with its usage. That’s why it’s pointless and misinformed and pompous to say “this word means this, end of argument!” Your third grade teacher is not the ultimate authority on the subject.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/175 "2014-02-24T21:59:48Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Neither does it require procreation, so why should it be restricted only to opposite sex couples?
>
> So what? Why should that determine marriage laws right now, in this country?
Because it’s our custom. Marriage is a custom and should be observed in the customary way.
---
### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/176 "2014-02-24T22:00:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Here’s a different version: you need two adults who want to get married. The race consideration used to be very important, now it isn’t. The gender consideration used to be important, and now that’s changing. See how this works?
It’s not ‘gender’, but ‘sex’. The two cases are not the same. False analogy.
To say ‘it’s changing’ when the ‘changing’ is merely the rulings of some demented judges is ludicrous. We as a culture, as a society, collectively establish customs, not some demented judge alone.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/177 "2014-02-24T22:01:36Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> The social value in recognizing and encouraging long term pair-bonding.
> An easy way to share assets between a couple.
> An easy way to designate next-of-kin in legal and medical decisions.
> Establishing a clear inheritance claim for the survivor of a long term relationship.
> And, of course, love.
>
> What are the values you perceive in matrimony? Why shouldn’t gay people be allowed to partake in those values?
So, are you saying that if a gay couple live in an area where SSM is not recognized, that they can’t—_don’t_—partake in those values? I think we both know that to be patently untrue.
To your larger point, as I’ve pointed out before, you can have SS couples partake of the same benefits and privileges while reserving marriage for 1 man + 1 woman.
---
### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/178 "2014-02-24T22:01:58Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> It’s not ‘gender’, but ‘sex’.
Get and read a dictionary. When you’re done with that, read up on strict scrutiny. Your argument about customs does not work in our legal system.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/179 "2014-02-24T22:03:48Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> They are no more ‘ludicrous’ than same-sex marriage. Who was talking about bestiality? You might marry an animal and remain celibate. There are couples who marry and remain celibate.
There’s nothing ludicrous at all about same sex marriage. Homosexuals are driven largely by the same needs and desires as straight people, including the desire to long term pair-bond. Much of society is set up around this idea - inheritance laws, hospital visitation, power of attorney, and more are all set up to default to the spouse. By denying homosexuals the marriage, you are creating large (often insurmountable) walls between gay couples and the ability to exercise those rights.
By contrast, an animal cannot own property, cannot make legal decisions, and probably shouldn’t be in a hospital for sanitary reasons. All of the legal rights and responsibilities that accrue to someone in a marriage are _literally impossible_ to grant to an animal, much less an inanimate object. It’s a ridiculous comparison.
To say nothing of insulting, but I’m pretty sure you already knew that part.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/180 "2014-02-24T22:05:37Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Because it’s our custom. Marriage is a custom and should be observed in the customary way.
It used to be our custom that it was okay to own other people. We changed that.
It used to be our custom that women couldn’t vote. We changed that.
It used to be our custom that black people and white people couldn’t marry each other. We changed that.
Why should we not change marriage customs to allow gay couples to wed?
---
### Author:  [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-care-about-gay-marriage/681766/181 "2014-02-24T22:06:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> For marriage you just need one male and one female. That’s it. The coming together of man and woman is race/skin color agnostic.
Maybe in your backwater. There are places in this world that require only two adults for a marriage.
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Dictionaries have picked up this ignorant usage. They record erroneous usage.
Nope. Not even close to being an accurate statement.
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