Well, if all atheists did claim to avoid generalizations, and then generalized, they would be hypocritical, yes. However, I was not aware that “avoiding generalizations” was an essential tenet of atheism. I better go reread the Big Golden Book of Atheism.
I agree with you that Christianity (or any religion) is not inevitably hypocritical, though. It might be wise to entertain the possibility that your beliefs may be incorrect, but a failure to do so is not neccesarily evidence of hypocrisy. It would be hypocritical if the followers of one religion demanded that other people listen open-mindedly to their religion while refusing to do the same for others, which might be what Kaje is getting at. However, that’s not endemic behavior to all theists, so I don’t think s/he can say that it’s inherent in theism.
The time is about 500 years B.C.
The place is Babylon, a city on the Euphates, 55 miles south of present day Baghdad.
The Jews have been taken there in exile and to them they might as well be on the moon.
Actually they are not truly slaves for they are allowed to form their own communities, start schools, practice their religion and basically everything is lovely.
So what is the problem? They really can’t practice their religion because God is back in Jerusalem and that is where they must make their sacrifices to him. This has a dramatic effect on the Jewish religion, because it makes them expand their ideas about God. It also made them think about the fact that theirs was an oral tradition and it needed to be written down, so that was what they did while in Babylon (or at least started the process).
I am not doing a good job of relating how they hated the exile, but being there knowing that the Temple had been destroyed (the one that Solomon built} is one of the main topics of the bible. That is the background of Psalm 137.
I don’t know what the other river was but one was Euphates.
Zion refers to Jerusalem and also to a place like Utopia (which is how they remembered their homeland).
They have hung up their harps (and probably other musical instruments), because they don’t feel like singing or playing the songs. This might be because it will remind them more of Zion or maybe because the locals are really making fun of them and their songs. Maybe both, but whatever they don’t want to play songs and be happy.
God isn’t here and so can’t hear the songs.
To me when it says “forget” it is saying “betray” and it isn’t just Jerusalem but also God because that is where He is at. But anyway The writer is saying I might as well not have the ability to play songs without Jerusalem.
Enforcing the thought
This verse refers to a neighboring country of Israel, which the Jews consider enemies. I don’t know but possibly the Edomites were the ones that actually tore down the Temple. This verse is most likely venting their anger and letting the Edomites know that when they return, all has not been forgotten.
Back to the captors. They have done such a terrible thing that they must be destroyed. Whoever destroys them will be happy to be punishing such wicked people.
I don’t know if their children were dashed against the rocks while they were being taken into exile. If that happened then this explains the verse. I personally think it probably the worst thing they could think of and it is used to show just how much they hated their captors for taking them away from Jerusalem. It sure would have gotten the captors attention, since it is still getting attention.
Another thought about this Psalm. Psalms were songs and what if they were asked to sing a song and instead of singing one of their oldies but goodies, They made up this song?
The Jews were in Babylon for maybe 70 years and then Persia defeated Babylon. Thru connections the Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem (Book of Esther). Surprisingly not all of them left Babylon, which became a place of learning and also the beginning of the Diaspora.
first off might i begin by saying i am male… perhaps i should change my name to PenisKaje or KajeThug to avoid the ambiguity… but i digress
what i meant to say, which could be distorted by the oh-so-subtle vitriol… is that in order for a Christian to appeal to an “outsider”, they must convince them to consider the fact that their beliefs may be wrong, but when you ask them to make the same concession, (ie: maybe jesus WAS just a prophet?)… the response is resoundingly negative… Now as I said, in a way this is essential for religions, though hinduism among others has no trouble respecting other religions (and in my book truly respecting means accepting the possibility that maybe you don’t have the only/complete picture)… furthermore, many atheists make the same mistake…
we call our scientific understandings theories because it gives them room to change as we gather more information. I think we should treat theology no different… as Chris Rock said in Dogma, people get killed over beliefs, its better to have ideas.
Thank you for the patient response to my post.
However, I never said I was worried about anything. Did you mean when I said leery? All it meant was I was suspicious of it. I wonder what all the fuss is about. And how does it make things better (for people, not God) to follow those first four commandments?
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*Originally posted by Kaje * first off might i begin by saying i am male… perhaps i should change my name to PenisKaje or KajeThug to avoid the ambiguity… but i digress
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Glad to hear that, so am I. What has that got to do with this thread?
Wrong this time, Jack. I too think he was a great prophet and not part of a trinity.
This is true, but I think you should have enough respect for them as to capitalize Hinduism. I have had Atheists assure me that it is only a minority of them that tries to convert believers into non-believers.
Seriously, are you really a scientist?
Yeah, Chris has got a lot of good ideas and would be thrilled to know he is being cited as a religious authority.
i posted the sex reference because i was referred to as “s/he” so i thought i would eliminate need for that in the future…
you may be in a small minority of christians who don’t get into the trinity bit… but my point was (and perhaps you are an enlightened rarity) that the Christians I’ve known, which have been quite plentiful, while being open-minded about many things, eventually come to a point where they refuse to admit that there could be any other possibility… Whether this is the divinity of the Bible, the divinity of Jesus, the accuracy of events, or whatever, there is somewhere an assertion made for which there can be no alternative
capitalization? it’s petty nonsense… I don’t need a shift key to show respect for one thing or another
with atheists my statement wasn’t that many made the mistake of trying to convert… but that many refuse to believe the minute possibility that who they’r arguing with COULD somehow be right
You don’t need a PhD. to understand that the word “theory” refers to something which is NOT 100% certain or explained
Why can’t Chris Rock’s words (which in this case would actually be Kevin Smith’s words) be quoted? Satchell Paige has quite a few aphorisms under his belt. whoever’s words they are they may or may not make sense, and it just so happens in this case that the lines from a particular movie were suitable… should they be questioned? of course, as quotes from any philosopher or theologian should, that doesn’t make it automatically wrong or unworthy of inspection
By divinity of the bible, I assume that you mean that it is divinely inspired. I do not believe this. Actually if God wrote it then all parts of the bible should be equally written. It should all be intelligent, beautiful and with no flaws. This is not true of the bible. John Wesley wrote a book that contained approximately half of the Psalms and said that the rest did not deserve to be included in his book or the bible. The Book of Lamentations is not only boring, but also at times pretty disgusting. A woman in my bible study group said that she thought every word in the bible was true. I asked her what she thought of the part where Paul says a woman has no place in the church. She blushed and said she just skips over those parts that she doesn’t believe to be worthwhile.
We may all have a point where we draw the line, but so does everyone else. You seem to say you don’t which would be very unlikely.
us coud awl said it be petty nonsense 2 speel currectli oar too usen goud Anglesh, butt me thincs iten be beter four usen two awl does r bestest.
And like you to assume that all Christians are fundies
[Quote] You don’t need a PhD. to understand that the word “theory” refers to something which is NOT 100% certain or explained
[Quote]
Granted
Again granted, but I still think Mr. Rock would get a kick out of it.
Nope, it’s I who you misquoted. I never said you were worried. Please re-read: on 7/15/2001 5:44 PM (EDT) you wrote -
To which I responded, on 7/16/2001 2:07 PM (EDT) -
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You stated that the first four commandments imply some form of worry on the part of G-d. I responded that that’s not true.
Well, clearly, if G-d exists (and the whole story of the Ten Commandments is predicated on his declaration of them on Mount Sinai). Therefore, it is beneficial for people to understand who is in control of the world and to direct their efforts toward following his commandments and not waste their time and energy (and good will in his eyes) by worshipping other entities, real or imagined. It is additionally beneficial to not trivialize that being by invoking his name falsely or in vain. And it is beneficial for people to be forced to spend some time divorced from the “rat race” so that they maintain their proper perspective on what the purpose of their worldly life is rather than to see it as an end on and of itself.
No, wait a minute…that was the purpose of something, but I can’t quite put my finger on just what…
Seriously, according to Orthodox Judaism, the purpose of life is to increase the understanding and appreciation of G-d in this world, through performance of the Biblical commandments, including ethical behavior. You can see, no doubt, how it could be easy to lose that perspective if one spends his time, 24-7, concerning himself with the mundane issues of amassing worldly wealth…that ends up becoming and end in and of itself rather than the means to the aforementioned purpose. Being forced to sit it out for a day helps to avoid this.
For some reason, this reminds me of the following…
God: “I even told them, 'Thou Shalt Really Try to Get Along with One Another.” Dean: “Did it work?” God: “I can’t say for sure. Everyone was slaughtered by the followers of the god in the next valley who told them to kill everyone who didn’t believe in him.”
–Terry Pratchett, The Last Continent
