# Why Should I Support Israel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015 "2008-12-29T01:32:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/181 "2009-01-04T04:56:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Israel’s strategic advantages to us include but are not limited to: > > -access to a first rate intel service with contacts all over the ME Does that include all the great intel we got about Iraq’s non-existent WMDs? ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/182 "2009-01-04T05:25:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I Iran does not want democracy in the region because it threatens to spread into it’s own country which currently has a lot of underground political dissent. So let’s chat about how they work to destabilise the democratic government in Yemen ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/183 "2009-01-04T05:26:40Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I really didn’t know Israel has never assisted us in war before. Why would this be common sensical? Especially to someone who has been told over and over that Israel is an ally we desparately need. It’s not a function of that. .Israel has assisted in war before by driving Syria out of Jordan in the early 70’s which was the result of Jordan fighting Palestinian paramilitary forces. This was done at the behest of the United States. You can look up Jordan in Wiki and read about it under Modern Jordan. > [@monstro](#): > > I haven’t ignored anyone. I just didn’t appreciate **xtisme’s** dismissal of my question. > > As if it matters, I lean more towards Israel’s side than against it, if only because I think it’s a lost cause for the Palestinians to keep fighting. But I still don’t understand how Israel is so important strategically if they are essentially handicapped by the forces around them. If someone could explain it to me respectfully, without all the hostility, I’d appreciate it. > > If you can’t be that person, **Magiver** , then just back off. That has nothing to do with the statement in question. You said: **How many troops has Israel provided for either the War in Iraq or Afghanistan?** The implied meaning of this statement is that if they’re a close ally, why don’t they supply troops to the cause. The assumption is that you have some idea what is going on and are aware that Israel is not providing troops. It also makes it a rhetorical question. I don’t know if you’re a 12 year old engaging a debate site but an adult who is discussing politics would be well aware of the political climate in the Mid-East as it relates to Israel. Knowledge of this is basic. If you’re without any real knowledge of the world then you should premise it with your argument for clarification so people know how to respond. It’s nothing personal but you’re coming into this with a “nobody told me the world was round” attitude and that isn’t going to fly very far. It’s not a matter of people dismissing you as much as it is the fact that anyone entering into a discussion of Middle Eastern events should be aware of the most basic of issues involved. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/184 "2009-01-04T05:32:59Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > So let’s chat about how they work to destabilise the democratic government in Yemen Let’s start another thread so it’s not a hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/185 "2009-01-04T05:48:44Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Not only do we buy more of their oil than anyone else (which severely impacts the global market), we send them similar foreign aid packages for defense and such as we do Israel, hence the confusion. > > Again, we cannot forever serve two masters. Since it’s a global market it doesn’t matter who buys what from whom. And we currently don’t supply aid to Saudi Arabia. What we use to provide was a couple of million for military training which probably came back to us anyway. On the other hand, Saudi Arabia buys arms from the United States which is in the billions (although they have recently shifted some of that to Russia). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/186 "2009-01-04T05:58:47Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But I still don’t understand how Israel is so important strategically if they are essentially handicapped by the forces around them. To answer your question, I’m not sure I understand it.. How are they handicapped by the forces around them? Do you mean from a political standpoint? We don’t ally with nations purely on a mutual support basis. From a military standpoint they don’t have to supply troops to us to be of military use. They can supply intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/187 "2009-01-04T06:00:51Z")
[QUOTE=treis] Which isn’t really relevant. A strategic ally isn’t a drinking buddy, it’s somebody that can do something for you. Israel might be our bestest buddy, but if they can’t do anything for us they are strategically useless. [/QUOTE] We have basing and over flight privileges with them. We share intel. We have training relationships with them, both for our regular and for our special forces (and probably our covert forces as well). > [@](#): > > Israel doesn’t really have any ability to project power on a world level. So what? No one has this ability except the US…so, should we only ally with ourselves? How do you suppose most of our allies got their forces to the ME to support us in our current lash up there? Who do you figure supplies the majority of the logistics support? If you answered ‘we do’ then you are close to the mark. > [@](#): > > Admittedly, it is always better to have friends than not have friends, but I can’t come up with any realistic scenario in my mind where we would need Israel’s support. The only plausible scenario I can come up with is another arab alliance against Israel backed by another world power. At that point, it would be us aiding them, not the other way around. I can’t come up with a reasonable scenario where we’d need the support (in a direct military way) of MOST of our current crop of allies. Do you suppose Japan is going to be sending heavy forces somewhere to our aid? South Korea? How about our allies in South America? Even our European allies are by and large heavy hitters when it comes to deploying heavy forces in our aid. We generally ally with out countries militarily in one of our adventures for purely political reasons…it looks better if we invade, say, Iraq, with a bunch of other nations at our heels than if we go in all by ourselves. The only country on earth that I think actually has a military that could be considered ‘vital’ to US military operations is the UK. This isn’t meant to denigrate the contributions of other countries militaries, but they simply aren’t in our league and we use them for those political reasons…which is why we DON’T request or desire Israeli support. While it’s true that they haven’t sent ground troops to aid us, we also haven’t sent ground troops to aid THEM in any of their various wars either…despite the fact that they have been much more hard pressed than we have been, ehe? > [@](#): > > Can you give me a realistic scenario where Israeli troops or logistical support could assist us? Sure, I could think of a few. We HAVE used them for logistic support in the past after all (we have naval basing and air basing and overfly privileges after all). But I think the same could be said for many of our allies, including those who we spend significant amounts of money on in either direct or indirect support…and I can think of several allies we’d be more politically disposed to committing our own troops too than Israel (who we’ve never committed significant forces too). > [@](#): > > I have to say though, I like your little shot at the Europeans. I mean, we’ve poured billions and billions of dollars worth of military aid into Israel, spent an enormous amount of political capital defending them, and they’ve contributed oh, 0 troops ever to any of our wars. That’s so much more helpful than the tens of thousands of European troops fighting alongside our troops. I’m glad you liked it. We have, of course, poured billions of dollars into military and non-military aid into Europe as well…and if your gage for the worth of those dollars is direct military aid in our support then I’d say it’s been over all a pretty poor return on investment (aside from the UK). Since it’s already been explained why Israel hasn’t sent troops to our aid (and we don’t want them too), I will go with the ‘disingenuous’ call at this point in your favor. monstro obviously didn’t know why, but YOU do…now. > [@](#): > > Trade is nice, but Israel isn’t what you would consider a strategic trading partner. They offer no natural resources, control no major trade routes, is not geographically close to us, and just is a flat out small country. I see 13 billion worth of exports and 20 billion worth of imports. That’s half of our trade with France, for example, and 5% of our trade with Canada. By my calculations, Israel accounts for right around 1% of U.S. trade. I don’t know where that puts them, but it’s not in the top 15. If I had to guess, I would say between top 20 and top 30. So what? Again, do you base alliance on who trades most with us? Then China should be our number one ally, no? We DO trade with them and on friendly terms which was my point. > [@](#): > > This just doesn’t make sense. There’s no strategic benefit for having Israel as a tourism destination. Perhaps you can explain this more, but I can’t come up with any reason why this should be a strategic benefit. It gives American citizens a friendly place in the region to go too that also has a pretty significant historical and religious significance? I’m sorry that you don’t get that but it has a significant impact on our relationship with Israel and I’d say it’s a strategic concern to the State Department. > [@](#): > > This just doesn’t make sense. There’s no strategic benefit for having Israel as a tourism destination. Perhaps you can explain this more, but I can’t come up with any reason why this should be a strategic benefit. Because of the historic and religious significance of the region it makes Israel a major tourist draw for American’s. Anywhere significant numbers of America citizens go on an annual basis is of strategic concern to the US, and thus makes it in our best interest to have friendly relations with that nation. The fact that we have such a close relation with Israel (as we do with France, the UK, Japan, South Korea, etc) simply forms yet another tie between us. Military, intelligence, trade, tourism, etc etc…taken individually they don’t mean much. Add them together and you start to get a better picture as far as why there is such a relationship between our countries. Or, it could just be a huge conspiracy by the Jews to force us to it I suppose. Or you could take a shot at why YOU think we’ve had this relationship with Israel for decades now if it’s of so little value to us. > [@](#): > > I’m all about democracy, but that’s not really a strategic concern either. Israel is a tiny democracy in the grand scheme of things. They aren’t a bulwark against any sort of domino effect. If Israel became a fascist dictatorship or an absolute monarchy tomorrow, I don’t see any strategic effect on the U.S. The fact that they have a similar government makes it easier for us to have the relationship we have with them. If Israel WAS a fascist dictatorship or whatever it would be more difficult for us to have such a close relationship with them (and probably vice versa), which would have a strategic effect. > [@](#): > > Israel is a military ally: Israel has never contributed a single troop or logistical support to any of our wars. They have aided us exactly as we’ve wanted them too in the past. We have never asked them to contribute a single troop to ‘any of our wars’ for reasons already explained too you. They have provided us with numerous other assistance from a military perspective in the past including allowing basing and over flight, providing us with intel, cross training of our troops and special ops folks…and gods know what else on the covert side. They have been as good an ally to us as the vast majority of our OTHER allies. Again, if the relationship is of so little value, why exactly HAVE we maintained it for so long? > [@](#): > > Israel is a strategic trade parnter: Israel is a minor trade partner accounting for 1% of total U.S. trade And China is a major trading partner with the US…yet we don’t have a close strategic relationship with them. Weird, ehe? > [@](#): > > Israel is a tourist desination: Since when is tourism strategically important? Probably since our citizens stopped being disposable I guess. > [@](#): > > Israel is a democracy: That’s nice, but where is the strategic benefit? All part of the package deal. > [@](#): > > Amusingly enough, you missed the only real strategic benefit that Israel gives us, and that is intelligence. Obviously this isn’t something countries publish figures on, but I’d imagine that Israel has one of the best intelligence networks in the M.E. I wasn’t trying for an exhaustive list there, just a general overview…being half (well, more than half) drunk tended to make me ramble in the past…so I’ve tried to keep my answers shorter. In fact I missed a lot of things, and you skated over several and missed a bunch more yourself. Intelligence is certainly one of the things that makes our strategic relationship…but so are a bunch of the one’s I did mention in passing and you hand waved away. The value of a strategic ally to the US isn’t in how many troops they have committed to our battles. Frankly, we don’t NEED anyone else to send troops to fight our battles for us. We generally try and get other nations involved in our various stupid wars for POLITICAL reasons…not military. And having Israel send even advisers would be counter productive to us…to put it mildly. If we ever REALLY needed Israeli military support I have no doubts they would support us to the best of their abilities. > [@](#): > > We spent a lot of time, effort, and money on backing Israel, and I don’t see how the strategic benefits come near making up for it. We have spent a lot of money backing Taiwan as well, and they aren’t even formally a country. Leaving aside the Jewish conspiracy theory, why exactly do you THINK we have supported Israel all this time? Why did we support Europe so heavily especially during the Soviet era? The primary reason was location, location location. The ME is a vital strategic area for the US and Israel is smack dab in the middle of it. They are a Democracy who is on very friendly terms with the US and allows us things like basing and over flight privileges, as well as partnering with us on military R&D and training. They share intelligence with us. I love my country but let’s be honest here…the US doesn’t throw large amounts of money and support to countries that aren’t of benefit to us…not on the order of what our first tier allies get from us anyway. We didn’t rebuild Japan and Germany (and large swaths of Europe) out of the goodness of our hearts after WWII…we did it because it was strategically important to us. As you pointed out we don’t have a large trading relationship with Israel. They don’t have vitally strategic resources like oil. So, logic would say that there has to be some really good reason for us to do what we have done…no? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/188 "2009-01-04T06:22:12Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > If you don’t know then…well, you don’t. The reason Israel hasn’t sent troops into either Afghanistan or Iraq is because A) We don’t WANT them there for political reasons and B) THEY don’t want them there…for the same kinds of political reasons. I suppose one could also add a C) Israeli troops would be counter productive on both a political and military level and would likely inflame the entire region much more than it already is. > … > > Apologies…I assumed you were asking this question as a debating trick, already knowing the answer and using it because the short ‘none’ answer seems to say something that isn’t in fact true. > > -XT In fact Israeli troops don’t fight in foreign wars conducted for their benefit. That’s what the US military is for. The answer of ‘none, never’ is eloquent. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/189 "2009-01-04T06:42:07Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > … > We have spent a lot of money backing Taiwan as well, and they aren’t even formally a country. Leaving aside the Jewish conspiracy theory, why exactly do you THINK we have supported Israel all this time? . > … > The ME is a vital strategic area for the US and Israel is smack dab in the middle of it. > > They are a Democracy who is on very friendly terms with the US and allows us things like basing and over flight privileges, > … > I love my country but let’s be honest here…the US doesn’t throw large amounts of money and support to countries that aren’t of benefit to us… > . So, logic would say that there has to be some really good reason for us to do what we have done…no? > > -XT Why all this support? Soft-headed thinking, books of prophecy and the Israeli lobby. “Smack dab in the middle”? Map says it’s right at the edge, the poorer edge at that. “basing and flight privileges”? How many bases exactly? Hint: see earlier: Troops deployed & US Israeli Treaties “So logically”? The fact of all that aid without tangible return shows exactly that the money is given for no benefit, even though the consequences are counter-productive. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/190 "2009-01-04T06:48:15Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > In fact Israeli troops don’t fight in foreign wars conducted for their benefit. That’s what the US military is for. > > The answer of ‘none, never’ is eloquent. The United States did not send in troops for the 67 Israeli war nor are we supplying any now in the conflicts with Hamas and Hezbollah. However, as posted earlier, Israel fought against Syria in support of Jordan. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/191 "2009-01-04T07:52:55Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > We have basing and over flight privileges with them. We share intel. We have training relationships with them, both for our regular and for our special forces (and probably our covert forces as well). Which is nice, but their basing and flight privileges aren’t strategically significant. Training is good as well, but do they offer anything that we can’t/don’t get from our other allies? Intel is important certainly, and it would be bad to lose that capability. > [@xtisme](#): > > So what? No one has this ability except the US…so, should we only ally with ourselves? How do you suppose most of our allies got their forces to the ME to support us in our current lash up there? Who do you figure supplies the majority of the logistics support? If you answered ‘we do’ then you are close to the mark. Why did you ignore the rest of this paragraph? Anyways, I think our allies got their troops there on their own. The U.K. demonstrated in the Falkland wars that they can project force anywhere in the globe. Why do you think that our allies aren’t logistically supporting their troops in the field? The Brits are using their SA80 rifle, fighting in their Challenger tanks, and flying their Tornado’s in Iraq as far as I know. As to your question of who we should ally with, I think we should ally with countries that can deploy troops in our interests in a realistic scenario. I think that we should protect countries that we have a significant economic interest in. I think we should favor countries that have significant strategic implications in our foreign policy over ones that don’t. > [@xtisme](#): > > I can’t come up with a reasonable scenario where we’d need the support (in a direct military way) of MOST of our current crop of allies. Do you suppose Japan is going to be sending heavy forces somewhere to our aid? South Korea? How about our allies in South America? Even our European allies are by and large heavy hitters when it comes to deploying heavy forces in our aid. We generally ally with out countries militarily in one of our adventures for purely political reasons…it looks better if we invade, say, Iraq, with a bunch of other nations at our heels than if we go in all by ourselves. The only country on earth that I think actually has a military that could be considered ‘vital’ to US military operations is the UK. This isn’t meant to denigrate the contributions of other countries militaries, but they simply aren’t in our league and we use them for those political reasons…which is why we DON’T request or desire Israeli support. Certainly political considerations come into play, but you can’t discount the troops they put into the field. Over 100,000 troops from Britain alone have served in Iraq [link](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/middle_east/july-dec08/uk_1217.html). While that is small compare to the 1.5 million U.S. soldiers that have served, it can’t simply be discounted. That’s 100,000 troops we didn’t have to send, and considering how stretched our military is, it certainly counts as a strategic benefit. It’s likely a similar number of non-US soldiers have fought in Afghanistan as well, and the same argument applies there as well. > [@xtisme](#): > > Sure, I could think of a few. I’m all ears. > [@xtisme](#): > > We HAVE used them for logistic support in the past after all (we have naval basing and air basing and overfly privileges after all). But I think the same could be said for many of our allies, including those who we spend significant amounts of money on in either direct or indirect support…and I can think of several allies we’d be more politically disposed to committing our own troops too than Israel (who we’ve never committed significant forces too). I’d like a cite for the U.S. using overfly, naval, and air basing privileges on a routine basis. As far as I know, we have no naval or air bases in Israel. Just by looking at a map, I can’t see when we would have used Israel’s overfly privileges. > [@xtisme](#): > > I’m glad you liked it. We have, of course, poured billions of dollars into military and non-military aid into Europe as well…and if your gage for the worth of those dollars is direct military aid in our support then I’d say it’s been over all a pretty poor return on investment (aside from the UK). We propped up Europe as a proxy force against the Soviet Union. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, I am unaware of any military aid going to Western Europe. Eastern Europe, probably, but that’s because we want them as a buffer against Russia. > [@xtisme](#): > > Since it’s already been explained why Israel hasn’t sent troops to our aid (and we don’t want them too), I will go with the ‘disingenuous’ call at this point in your favor. monstro obviously didn’t know why, but YOU do…now. The point, my dear, is that if there is no reasonable scenario where Israel would fight along side us in a war, then how exactly does this count as a strategic benefit? > [@xtisme](#): > > So what? Again, do you base alliance on who trades most with us? Then China should be our number one ally, no? We DO trade with them and on friendly terms which was my point. And my point was that Israel’s trade is too minor to be considered a strategic implication. If trade with China were cut off tomorrow, the U.S. economy would collapse (well, more than it already is). If trade with Israel were cut off tomorrow, we would shrug and barely notice it. Thus, we have a large strategic interest in keeping trade open with China, and only a minor interest in keeping it open with Israel. > [@xtisme](#): > > It gives American citizens a friendly place in the region to go too that also has a pretty significant historical and religious significance? I’m sorry that you don’t get that but it has a significant impact on our relationship with Israel and I’d say it’s a strategic concern to the State Department. Who knew we had a strategic interest in Bora Bora? > [@xtisme](#): > > Because of the historic and religious significance of the region it makes Israel a major tourist draw for American’s. Anywhere significant numbers of America citizens go on an annual basis is of strategic concern to the US, and thus makes it in our best interest to have friendly relations with that nation. The fact that we have such a close relation with Israel (as we do with France, the UK, Japan, South Korea, etc) simply forms yet another tie between us. Indeed, tourism and religious significance form close ties between nations, but we aren’t talking about warm relationships. We are talking about the cold hard reality of realpolitik. The cold hard reality of tourism to Israel is that some people would be sad if we lost it, but life would go on as normal without it. > [@xtisme](#): > > Military, intelligence, trade, tourism, etc etc…taken individually they don’t mean much. Add them together and you start to get a better picture as far as why there is such a relationship between our countries. Or, it could just be a huge conspiracy by the Jews to force us to it I suppose. Or you could take a shot at why YOU think we’ve had this relationship with Israel for decades now if it’s of so little value to us. Play that antisemitism card! I’ve added up the benefits of relationships with Israel. The bottom line is that they don’t come close to justifying the enormous cost of our relationship. > [@xtisme](#): > > The fact that they have a similar government makes it easier for us to have the relationship we have with them. If Israel WAS a fascist dictatorship or whatever it would be more difficult for us to have such a close relationship with them (and probably vice versa), which would have a strategic effect. This is true, but it’s not really the point. > [@xtisme](#): > > They have aided us exactly as we’ve wanted them too in the past. We have never asked them to contribute a single troop to ‘any of our wars’ for reasons already explained too you. They have provided us with numerous other assistance from a military perspective in the past including allowing basing and over flight, providing us with intel, cross training of our troops and special ops folks…and gods know what else on the covert side. They have been as good an ally to us as the vast majority of our OTHER allies. Israel has treated us like the nerd play ground treats the kid that stops the bully from beating him up. In other words, we are Israel’s #1 backer by far, and they are very careful about not making us mad. So in that sense, yes, they have been a good ally. However, if the metric is providing us with some strategic benefit, then no, Israel hasn’t been a very good ally. We’ve gotten very little out of the relationship. > [@xtisme](#): > > Again, if the relationship is of so little value, why exactly HAVE we maintained it for so long? It hasn’t been that long. As to why we do maintain it, simply because opposing Israel is a politically difficult position to take, and there’s no benefit from doing so. This phenomenon isn’t unique to Israel. Things such as farm subsidies and the embargo against Cuba are inadvisable and unpopular yet they still exist. Simply because the gain in the rest of the country in opposing these issues isn’t close to the loss of support in Iowa and Florida. > [@xtisme](#): > > And China is a major trading partner with the US…yet we don’t have a close strategic relationship with them. Weird, ehe? If someone were threatening to invade China we sure as shit would be there to stop them. The difference between our relationship with China and Israel is that China is a world class power in her own right. She has goals and aims that are opposite of the United States, and has the means to pursue them. This makes our relationship at times frosty. Israel, on the other hand, is an insignificant power on the world stage. They are dependent on U.S. for military aid and political backing. They take aims not to piss us off, which makes our relationship more friendly on the whole. > [@xtisme](#): > > I wasn’t trying for an exhaustive list there, just a general overview…being half (well, more than half) drunk tended to make me ramble in the past…so I’ve tried to keep my answers shorter. In fact I missed a lot of things, and you skated over several and missed a bunch more yourself. Intelligence is certainly one of the things that makes our strategic relationship…but so are a bunch of the one’s I did mention in passing and you hand waved away. I’d like to hear more if you have them, because I don’t think the ones you’ve proffered are very strong. > [@xtisme](#): > > The value of a strategic ally to the US isn’t in how many troops they have committed to our battles. Frankly, we don’t NEED anyone else to send troops to fight our battles for us. We generally try and get other nations involved in our various stupid wars for POLITICAL reasons…not military. And having Israel send even advisers would be counter productive to us…to put it mildly. If we ever REALLY needed Israeli military support I have no doubts they would support us to the best of their abilities. I’m sure they would too, but since they can’t, that doesn’t really matter too much does it? I mean you’ve clearly recognized the problem here. Israel can’t support us in our M.E. wars because it would lose us the support of our far more important Arab allies. Why can’t you extrapolate this concept from the specific case of war to the broader strategic realm? > [@xtisme](#): > > We have spent a lot of money backing Taiwan as well, and they aren’t even formally a country. Leaving aside the Jewish conspiracy theory, why exactly do you THINK we have supported Israel all this time? You know what, fuck you. Shove this anti-Jewish shit up your fucking ass. You want to know why no one takes a public stand against Israel? It’s because cunts like you accuse us of antisemitism. It doesn’t matter if someone gives a reasoned fact based analysis because dicks like you come along and insinuate they are antisemitic. The well has been poisoned, and there is nothing to gain by fighting it. > [@xtisme](#): > > Why did we support Europe so heavily especially during the Soviet era? The primary reason was location, location location. We protected Europe because it was our strategic interest to do so. Europe was our dominant partner in trade, and losing those countries to the communist block would have collapsed our economy. Losing those countries to communism would have clearly established the Soviet Union as the #1 power, just as losing Poland et al signaled the U.S. becoming the #1 power. We protected Europe because we didn’t want our economy to collapse and we didn’t want to live in a Soviet dominated world. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/192 "2009-01-04T09:12:52Z")
> [@treis](#): > > You know what, fuck you. Shove this anti-Jewish shit up your fucking ass. You want to know why no one takes a public stand against Israel? It’s because cunts like you accuse us of antisemitism. It doesn’t matter if someone gives a reasoned fact based analysis because dicks like you come along and insinuate they are antisemitic. **Moderator’s Warning:** **Treis** , this is totally out of line. Either keep it civil or start a Pit thread; but don’t post like that in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/193 "2009-01-04T13:17:49Z")
**Treis** - If things on the “ally balance sheet” don’t work out in our favor wrt Israel, then why do we do it? In your opinion, why do we continue to put ourselves in our unenviable position? Why not just cut the cord and keep all that money and resources for ourselves? Other than losing what may be considered “crucial” intel resources, what would be the harm in just telling Israel “Hey there little buddy, we like you and all, and we still want to be your friend, but we’ve kinda got our own problems to worry about and we’re aren’t sending you any money for Hannukah this year”. ??? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/194 "2009-01-04T14:40:20Z")
> **[BBC ON THIS DAY | 7 | 1981: Israel bombs Baghdad nuclear reactor](http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/7/newsid_3014000/3014623.stm)** > > Israel shocks the world by destroying the Osirak nuclear plant near the Iraqi capital for fear it would be used to make atom bombs. You want to know what Israel can do for the US that the US can’t do for itself? There. That’s one thing right there. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/195 "2009-01-04T17:05:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Leaving aside the Jewish conspiracy theory, why exactly do you THINK we have supported Israel all this time? This is a bullshit argument. It is hardly a “conspiracy theory” to notice the effectiveness of [AIPAC](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee) at influencing our government’s policies toward Israel. It doesn’t take a conspiracy theorist to notice that our politicians are in lockstep behind Israel when 70% of the electorate prefer a policy of neutrality. If you want to play the _“anti-Semitic!”_ card, then you’re going to have to explain why even prominent Jewish citizens have been decrying AIPAC’s influence. [Like George Soros, for example](http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20030): > [@George Soros](#): > > The current policy is not even questioned in the United States. While other problem areas of the Middle East are freely discussed, criticism of our policies toward Israel is very muted indeed. The debate in Israel about Israeli policy is much more open and vigorous than in the United States… > > **One explanation is to be found in the pervasive influence of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), which strongly affects both the Democratic and the Republican parties.** AIPAC’s mission is to ensure American support for Israel but in recent years it has overreached itself. It became closely allied with the neocons and was an enthusiastic supporter of the invasion of Iraq. It actively lobbied for the confirmation of John Bolton as US ambassador to the United Nations. It continues to oppose any dialogue with a Palestinian government that includes Hamas. More recently, it was among the pressure groups that prevailed upon the Democratic House leadership to drop the requirement that the President obtain congressional approval before taking military action against Iran. AIPAC under its current leadership has clearly exceeded its mission, and far from guaranteeing Israel’s existence, has endangered it. > > …The pro-Israel lobby has been remarkably successful in suppressing criticism. Politicians challenge it at their peril because of the lobby’s ability to influence political contributions… > > …Anybody who dares to dissent may be subjected to a campaign of personal vilification… > > …Any politician who dares to expose AIPAC’s influence would incur its wrath; so very few can be expected to do so. **It is up to the American Jewish community itself to rein in the organization that claims to represent it.** **But this is not possible without first disposing of the most insidious argument put forward by the defenders of the current policies: that the critics of Israel’s policies of occupation, control, and repression on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem and Gaza engender anti-Semitism.** What a crazy theory! ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/196 "2009-01-05T02:30:58Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > **Treis** - > > If things on the “ally balance sheet” don’t work out in our favor wrt Israel, then why do we do it? > > In your opinion, why do we continue to put ourselves in our unenviable position? Why not just cut the cord and keep all that money and resources for ourselves? > > Other than losing what may be considered “crucial” intel resources, what would be the harm in just telling Israel “Hey there little buddy, we like you and all, and we still want to be your friend, but we’ve kinda got our own problems to worry about and we’re aren’t sending you any money for Hannukah this year”. > > ??? Because if any politician suggests something remotely critical of Israel they get labeled antisemitic by jerkoffs like **xstime**. In addition, as I mentioned before, the pro-Israel crowd has influential lobbyists, money, and a one-issue voting block in a key swing state. It’s no different from farm subsidies or the Cuban embargo. Even though all logic and reason says that these things are poor policy, they continue simply because there is little to gain politically from opposing them and a whole lot to gain in supporting them. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/197 "2009-01-05T02:49:27Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > It is hardly a “conspiracy theory” to notice the effectiveness of [AIPAC](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee) at influencing our government’s policies toward Israel. Of course not, it would only be a conspiracy theory with AIPAC as the villain if you were claiming that AIPAC have significant, even overbearing influence… and you were making that claim without factual support from sufficient data. Why, if all you were doing was saying that AIPAC supports an agenda and lobbies, then you’d be using a conspiracy theory based on the fallacies of Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc and/or Cum Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. But you tell us it’s not a conspiracy theory, so you’re clearly not doing that. Since you’re not advancing a conspiracy theory, I’m certain that you can provide us with data as to which bills/resolutions/issues AIPAC has lobbied for, during which specific months or which specific years, and which specific politicians didn’t already agree on their own with AIPAC’s positions and instead needed to be convinced. As you’re not advancing a conspiracy theory, you can prove exactly when AIPAC used its influence and exactly how many politicians it convinced at any specific moment in time. Right? And since, I’m sure, before advancing such a claim you would have done due diligence and thoroughly researched it, you can provide those facts without much delay at all. I’m sure. And as you’re interested in facts and not a conspiracy theory, you won’t do things like commit the fallacy of Appeal to Authority and cite people’s personal opinions as to what effect AIPAC has. You won’t simply cite politicians supporting AIPAC without showing that those politicians had to have their positions changed by AIPAC instead of already agreeing on their own. You certainly won’t provide quotes from unpopular politicians who lost reelection campaigns due to lack of popularity who blame the AIPAC for singlehandedly making people not vote for them. No, you’ll provide actual hard data as to which politicians AIPAC convinced, and when. I’m sure. So how soon can we expect the data that you’ve already gathered in order to make your bold, definitive claim? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/198 "2009-01-05T02:57:48Z")
> [@treis](#): > > jerkoffs like **xstime** **Moderator’s Warning:** **Treis** , you need to _ **cool it** _, NOW. You have gotten a few warnings for this sort of thing in the past; keeping it up in the same thread four posts and less than a day after your _first_ warning for personal insults in Great Debates is going to put your posting privileges on this board in jeopardy. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/199 "2009-01-05T03:31:55Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/200 "2009-01-05T03:46:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Of course not, it would only be a conspiracy theory with AIPAC as the villain if you were claiming that AIPAC have significant, even overbearing influence… and you were making that claim without factual support from sufficient data. Why, if all you were doing was saying that AIPAC supports an agenda and lobbies, then you’d be using a conspiracy theory based on the fallacies of Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc and/or Cum Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. But you tell us it’s not a conspiracy theory, so you’re clearly not doing that. > > Since you’re not advancing a conspiracy theory, I’m certain that you can provide us with data as to which bills/resolutions/issues AIPAC has lobbied for, during which specific months or which specific years, and which specific politicians didn’t already agree on their own with AIPAC’s positions and instead needed to be convinced. As you’re not advancing a conspiracy theory, you can prove exactly when AIPAC used its influence and exactly how many politicians it convinced at any specific moment in time. > Right? > > And since, I’m sure, before advancing such a claim you would have done due diligence and thoroughly researched it, you can provide those facts without much delay at all. I’m sure. > And as you’re interested in facts and not a conspiracy theory, you won’t do things like commit the fallacy of Appeal to Authority and cite people’s personal opinions as to what effect AIPAC has. You won’t simply cite politicians supporting AIPAC without showing that those politicians had to have their positions changed by AIPAC instead of already agreeing on their own. You certainly won’t provide quotes from unpopular politicians who lost reelection campaigns due to lack of popularity who blame the AIPAC for singlehandedly making people not vote for them. No, you’ll provide actual hard data as to which politicians AIPAC convinced, and when. > I’m sure. > > So how soon can we expect the data that you’ve already gathered in order to make your bold, definitive claim? I don’t get this. The entire raison d’entre of AIPAC is to influence American policy to favor Israel. I don’t see how it’s a conspiracy theory to say that they have been successful at that. I’ve never seen anyone be called a conspiracy theorist if they suggest that the AARP or the Teacher’s Unions are successful at influencing public policy. The policy of the AIPAC is to influence American policy to support Israel’s goals. That’s not a conspiracy theory. They say so right on their webpage: > [@](#): > > For more than half a century, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee has worked to help make Israel more secure by ensuring that American support remains strong. [http://www.aipac.org/about\_AIPAC/default.asp](http://www.aipac.org/about_AIPAC/default.asp) Judging by the numerous Presidents, Senators, Congressmen, Governors, Cabinet officials, and other high ranking government officials that have spoken at their events or praised AIPAC, I think they’ve had at least some success in their efforts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015.md?page=11)