# Why Should I Support Israel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015 "2008-12-29T01:32:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/81 "2008-12-30T22:30:59Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > There were of course lots of other factors, including the fact that the Jews in the ME supported the allies during WWI and the Turks (and many of the Arab ethnic groups) supported the other side. The Arabs tended to support the Allies during World War I, because they wanted independence. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/82 "2008-12-30T22:41:17Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > …What this means in that the establishment of Israel in 1948 was simply granting independence to the Jewish populaton that had already been there for decades. Sorry, could you remind me who Israel was granted independence from? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/83 "2008-12-30T22:58:53Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > My point wasn’t merely that Israel was a very young nation, but that the newcomers settled there and took over very recently. I wasn’t contrasting Israel with, say, Jordan but with, for instance, Australia. > > The closest examples I could think of would be for instance ethnic Chinese installed in Tibet (which is definitely a contentious issue) or colonists in French Algeria (most certainly contentious too). It differs from both of those examples in that, in both of those examples, the “newcommers” are _colonists_ - that is, members of a different nation-state intent on exerting influence or domination over the territory, and make it (hopefully) part of that nation-state. The difference, in the case of Israel, is twofold: 1. Israel is not a “colony”. There is no other nation, such as China or France, attempting to extend influence by exporting citizens by force. on the contrary, most of the citizens of Israel came as immigrants (generally, quite legally, with the exception of events surrounding WW2) or desperate refugees - from Europe or elsewhere in the ME. 2. Half the population were not “newcommers” at all – they were citizens, like the Arabs, of a united Turkish Imperium that was forcibly split into ethno-nations by Europeans acting within a context of nationalist ferment following WW1. No-one questions that the Arabs “get” ethno-nations; the expulsion of the (ancient) Jewish populations _to_ Israel is also generally unquestioned (and indeed unremarked). That is like saying that after (for example) Canada splits into its component provinces and every province forcibly expels the Native Canadians to (say) Prince Edward Island, where very few previously lived, that they are “newcommers” and thus of questionable legitimacy. They were not “newcommers” to the united entity that previously existed; if anything is “illegitimate”, it was their forcible expulsion in the first place. Thus, the creation of Israel cannot be looked at in isolation, but as part of the history of the region as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/84 "2008-12-30T22:59:56Z")
> [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](#): > > Sorry, could you remind me who Israel was granted independence from? British Mandate, carved out of Turkish Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/85 "2008-12-30T23:09:59Z")
> [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](#): > > Sorry, could you remind me who Israel was granted independence from? Technically, Israel wasn’t granted independence. The British left (without “handing the keys” over to any sort of local government or governments), and Israel \*declared \*independence. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/86 "2008-12-30T23:22:44Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Technically, Israel wasn’t granted independence. The British left (without “handing the keys” over to any sort of local government or governments), and Israel \*declared \*independence. OTOH the United Nations recognized that declaration. I suppose that was the “grant”, though as you say it simply formally recognized an existing state of affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/87 "2008-12-30T23:31:39Z")
As a matter of principle, I reject the notion that the United Nations is needed in order to “approve” a country’s independence. Nations were founded before the UN, and nations will still be founded after its gone. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/88 "2008-12-30T23:38:11Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > As a matter of principle, I reject the notion that the United Nations is needed in order to “approve” a country’s independence. Nations were founded before the UN, and nations will still be founded after its gone. I agree with that myself. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/89 "2008-12-31T00:22:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > How about the Lemba of South Africa, who are probably at least partially decended from Yemenite Jews? OK. You won. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/90 "2008-12-31T00:28:10Z")
Criminey, we’re already near the end of page 2 and we haven’t solved the Israeli/Palesinian conflict?? I am very disappointed in all of you. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/91 "2008-12-31T00:34:14Z")
Great bakers, the Lembas. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/92 "2008-12-31T00:42:10Z")
You learn something new on the SD all the time. Here I thought Lembas was a type of bread eaten by elves (and hobbits) when they were going on long journeys involving rings and fire… -XT ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/93 "2008-12-31T01:52:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The difference, in the case of Israel, is twofold: > > 1. Israel is not a “colony”. There is no other nation, such as China or France, attempting to extend influence by exporting citizens by force. on the contrary, most of the citizens of Israel came as immigrants (generally, quite legally, with the exception of events surrounding WW2) or desperate refugees - from Europe or elsewhere in the ME. You already argued this point with another poster. It doesn’t make much difference, especially from the point of view of the local population. Both Han migrants and French colonists came as immigrants, generally quite legally, from elsewhere, with the blessings of a foreign power in charge (China, France, and in the case of Palestine the UK) and without regard for the opinion of the local population that had no say in the matter. There’s no significant difference. > [@](#): > > 1. Half the population were not “newcommers” at all – they were citizens, like the Arabs, of a united Turkish Imperium that was forcibly split into ethno-nations by Europeans acting within a context of nationalist ferment following WW1. No-one questions that the Arabs “get” ethno-nations; > . How many Jews were living in Palestine in 1918 and how many in 1948? Don’t bother, I searched for figures. The Jewish population in Palestine was : In 1881 : 24 000 In 1914 : 84 000 In 1928 : 150 000 In 1948 : 585 000 (that’s the low figure I found. The high figure was about 800 000) That’s quite a lot of outsiders, in my opinion.The overwhelming majority of Jews living in Palestine in 1948 had clearly moved there during the British mandate. Now, you’re free to tell me how many were coming from the territories formerly owned by the Ottoman Empire, I wouldn’t know. But I would point out that you seem to be arguing that there was no Zionist movement, or that it was so unimportant that it’s barely worth mentioning. > [@](#): > > the expulsion of the (ancient) Jewish populations _to_ Israel is also generally unquestioned (and indeed unremarked). I’m not sure what you’re referring to here. I’m assuming the Jews who moved from Arab countries to Israel during the 50s. If so, that’s not relevant to the issue of the legitimacy of the Jewish immigration during the British mandate and of the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. Previewing my post, I’m wondering what period of Israel’s history you’re actually referring to. Your arguments refer to the population of the Ottoman empire, but you wrote : “_Israel is not a "colony_” in the present tense. In case it would be unclear, I’m discussing the events leading to the creation of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/94 "2008-12-31T07:27:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In this ferment, it is no surprise and no anomaly that while Turks sought a Turkey and Kurds sought a Kurdistan, that Jews sought a Jew-istan. In fact, Zionism is nothing more nor less than a parallel with the rise of ethno-nationalism in the ME generally. > The only anomaly is the triggering participation of European Jews in the process, the fact that unlike most of these other ethno-nations Israel did not become an autocrasy, and of course the continuing insistance that somehow Jewish ethno-nationalism is _totally_ different from any other sort of ME ethno-nationalism. I completely agree. Arab nationalism began to assert itself at the same time Zionists first attempted to recreate a Jewish homeland, but Jewish nationalism was a result of the cruelty and destructive forces of anti-Semitism in Europe, particularly Eastern Europe in the late nineteenth century. Jewish nationalism was a reaction to a virulent manifestation of racism. Zionism was a quest for sanctuary, and despite the Jewish population in Palestine prior to WWII, Israel was created by survivors of the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/95 "2008-12-31T10:18:57Z")
Do what I do - support Israel’s right to exist unconditionally, then call them on their shit every now and then to keep them honest. Like, I’d be happier if they dropped the right of return and extended citizenship rights to Palestinian spouses of Israeli citizens, but those are minor quibbles whith what is essentially a country I quite like. That’s not to say they don’t do things I don’t like (like the airstrikes), but that’s on their own consciences, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/96 "2008-12-31T13:48:55Z")
All these arguments, while intelligently made, to some degree miss the forest for the trees, at least in my opinion. Why we should “support” Israel is really as simple as _they are like us_. Israel is a modern western democracy full of people who, for the most part, just want to go about living their lives. On the other hand, there are a bunch of countries who are despotic hell-holes, intent on nursing grudges real or imagined, who think the solution to every problem is blowing up innocent people. I know this is to some degree a gross oversimplification, but which country is the more likely ally? Also, one thing that needs to be kept in mind. There are a lot of Jews in the United States, many of whom have connections with Israel. Its pretty natural for them to want to support Israel. Hell, a bunch of Americans of Irish descent who were probably less closely tied to Ireland than many American Jews are to Israel thought it was a good idea to support the IRA. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/97 "2008-12-31T15:04:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s not to say they don’t do things I don’t like (like the airstrikes), but that’s on their own consciences, as it were. Yes, but the problem is that we’re _financing_ this behavior. (We Americans, at least.) So it’s on _our_ conscience, too. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/98 "2008-12-31T15:08:04Z")
**Why should I support Israel?** Because if you don’t, [the juice](http://news.webshots.com/photo/2298296970103726530OBKYUv) will get you. ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/99 "2008-12-31T15:15:12Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Huh? How so? People have hinted at anti-Semitism in this thread, but it’s my turn to smell something a little stinky about Africans, here. > > And what make you think that Africans would have welcomed the Jewish diaspora? I see that my comment looks a little hinky. I don’t suppose they would have been thrilled but my impression of the people that built Israel is that they were not of the same frame of mind as the colonizers who did more exploiting than building. Perhaps they might have created a state that was more inclusive. The current state of African nations speaks for itself. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015/100 "2008-12-31T15:45:15Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > All these arguments, while intelligently made, to some degree miss the forest for the trees, at least in my opinion. Why we should “support” Israel is really as simple as _they are like us_. Israel is a modern western democracy full of people who, for the most part, just want to go about living their lives. On the other hand, there are a bunch of countries who are despotic hell-holes, intent on nursing grudges real or imagined, who think the solution to every problem is blowing up innocent people. I know this is to some degree a gross oversimplification, but which country is the more likely ally? The problem is that we needn’t make this a zero sum game. There is no reason why we have to root for “Team Israel” and spit and jeer at “Team Islam.” But that’s what we (in the US) do. We NEVER criticize Israeli actions. If anything happens between Israel and its neighbors, Israel is always right, and we never say—“Hey, guys, I know you have a legitimate security issue here, but maybe killing 400ish people, most of them noncombatants, is going a little overboard; dial it back, would you?” “Maybe you shouldn’t provoke UN peacekeepers in Lebanon with illegal overflights, OK?” Let’s face it—Hamas and its ilk ARE responsible for killing and wounding innocent Israelis, and Israel IS responsible for killing and wounding innocent Palestinians. We should be supporting them both (and calling them both out) so they can sort their shit out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-i-support-israel/479015.md?page=6)