# Why should Jews survive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576 "2003-04-28T02:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/41 "2003-04-28T19:17:11Z")
We could debate whether synagogues have actually become places to worship God (there’s no sacrifices, after all), but they have _de facto_ replaced the Temple. What, do you want to rebuild it and start offering sacrifices again? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/42 "2003-04-28T19:24:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*So are you advocating that we try everything? \*\* Who am I to claim perfect knowledge of the nature of the universe? Sure, let’s try everything, and let’s try it again just to be sure. Even then, we might have made a mistake. > [@](#): > > \*\*In any event, this simply reverts back to my previous point. If you are asking us to give up our belief in God and our ability to perform the commandments, then you are, in essence asking us to stop being Jewish. \*\* There was a time before Jews, and there will be a time after. That is inevitable. If no Jews ever become something other than Jews, then eventually the continuity of society itself will end. And Judaism will be gone forever. A species that ceases to adapt will eventually becomke existnct. > [@](#): > > **Agreed. But that’s a far cry from saying that most of it is junk, isn’t it?** No, not really. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/43 "2003-04-28T19:25:25Z")
Also, I just wanted to mention, for the record, that most American Jews aren’t Orthodox. I’m mentioning that just because, on this board, at least, it seems like a lot of the Jewish posters who post most about Judaism are Orthodox, and I just wanted to remind people that that isn’t the only strain of Judaism out there. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/44 "2003-04-28T19:25:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*We could debate whether synagogues have actually become places to worship God (there’s no sacrifices, after all), \*\* And sacrifice is the only acceptable form of worship? What do you think we do there? Just hang out and shoot the breeze? > [@](#): > > \*\* > but they have _de facto_ replaced the Temple. \*\* In a way, yes, that is correct. A synagouge is known in _halachic_ literature as a _mikdash me’at_ - a small Temple. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/45 "2003-04-28T19:30:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Who am I to claim perfect knowledge of the nature of the universe? Sure, let’s try everything, and let’s try it again just to be sure. Even then, we might have made a mistake. \*\* Well, if you’re willing to try everything, simply send me all your money to invest. Hey, I might even make a couple of bucks for you. > [@](#): > > \*\* > There was a time before Jews, and there will be a time after. That is inevitable. If no Jews ever become something other than Jews, then eventually the continuity of society itself will end. And Judaism will be gone forever. \*\* There was also a time before the United States and there will be a time after the United States. But I don’t see anyone making calls for us to stop being Americans and doing things that identify us as such. > [@](#): > > \*\* > A species that ceases to adapt will eventually becomke existnct. \*\* True, but you have to know which adaptations to make. Not all adaptations are good. Obviously, we don’t believe that abandoning the Torah and the commandments is a good adaptation to make. Such an adaptation would weaken Judaism, not strengthen it. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/46 "2003-04-28T21:05:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Cultural hybridization is a good thing, \*\* Please **cite**. > [@](#): > > _from [**Glorbalization**](http://www.valt.helsinki.fi/staff/ampuja/intro9.htm)_ > **Cultural hybridization refers to the mixing of Asian, African, American and European cultures** By **TVAA** ’s own definition this dones nothing but create a bunch of junk, with some good things thrown in the mix. How does that create anything better? [ul]😕 [sup] **Should the same standards be applied to the Native Americans?** [/sup][sub] **And why not?** [/sub][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/47 "2003-04-28T22:41:45Z")
I really have no idea what either the OP or TVAA are talking about. Speaking for myself, I have no concept of what it could be like _not_ to be Jewish. I mean, what else would I be - French? I alos consider this an especially inappropriate day for this thread to have shown up. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/48 "2003-04-29T11:18:21Z")
That’s one of the sacrifices Judaism makes – in retaining stability and distinctiveness, it’s forced to deal poorly with change. IANAH(istorian), but one could make the argument that centuries of persecution, pogroms and ghettos have paradoxically served to preserve Jewish identity and culture by denying the Jews the opportunity for assimilation. Forcing Jews to live in prescribed areas and preventing them from mainstream occupations and opportunities gave the Jews literally centuries to consider what it is to be a Jew and doubtless helped hone their survival skills. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/49 "2003-04-29T12:37:07Z")
One could also make the argument that Judaism’s success at getting its transmitters to identify as Jews first and foremost is part of what has historically made Jews such excellent scapegoats. Bigots perceive Jews not as people who happen to have the label/cultural background “Jewish”, but as a distinct and separate group. (Am I suggesting that the Jews are to _blame_ for centuries of persecution? No, of course not. Only a monkey-head noodle-brain would think that. Nevertheless, all decisions have consequences, and giving yourself permanent outsider status is not a good way to make friends and influence people – it’s like putting a “Kick Me” sign on your back and walking through a bully convention.) Here’s an interesting way to look at it: I know that there are now multiple “flavors” of Judaism, ranging from highly concerned with ancient tradition and ritual (Orthodox) to socially liberal and relative assimilation (Reform), yes? Are there now more people who actively identify themselves as Jews, or more people who’re are related to people who identified themselves as Jews but don’t themselves? Who is actually responsible for the greatest spread of ideas and viewpoints that could be considered “Jewish”? God’s covenant with Abraham included the promise that his descendants would outnumber the stars, right? (A story that is both astonishingly sophisticated and remarkably primitive, all at once… but that’s another post for another thread.) Who seems to be the recipient of that covenant: people who remain Jewish or people who cease being Jewish? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/50 "2003-04-29T14:03:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Here’s an interesting way to look at it: I know that there are now multiple “flavors” of Judaism, ranging from highly concerned with ancient tradition and ritual (Orthodox) to socially liberal and relative assimilation (Reform), yes? > \*\* Just as a quick question, what do you mean when you say “assimilation”? Because every Orthodox Jew I know is fully assimilated, by any standard use of the term. What distinguishes Orthodox Jews from Conservative Jews from Reform Jews from Reconstructionist Jews isn’t level of assimilation or political affiliation (even though differences in political affiliation exist). It’s how religious texts should be interpreted and what specific religious obligations exist for the believer. It’s like asking what the difference is between, say, Lutherans and Catholics and Baptists. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/51 "2003-04-29T14:18:45Z")
Culturally assimilated? Heck no. Am I suggesting that everyone should become like everyone else? Of course not. Are Orthodox Jews members of a rigidly-defined subculture that by its very nature requires a certain degree of alienation? Yep. I’ve heard many times that Orthodox Jews are very concerned about their children being exposed to non-Orthodox ideas, as they tend to break away from tradition to lesser or greater degrees… While I’m sure all Orthodox Jews can’t be painted with the same brush, I suspect that is a fairly common problem. There’s a very large element of self-reference in this argument that disturbs me. “Why do we do these things? Because we’re Jews! Why are we Jews? Because we do these things!” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/52 "2003-04-29T14:26:09Z")
Well, not culturally assimilated how? What experiences or values that you view as fundamental to American life do American Orthodox Jews not share? I mean, it’s got to be more than just not eating bacon. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/53 "2003-04-29T14:30:20Z")
It’s not American life. I don’t approve or disapprove of American culture any more than I approve or disapprove Orthodox Judaism. As long as the fundamental concepts of a social system are able to be meaningfully questioned and examined within that system, I’m happy. “We do this because we do this, and it’s unthinkable for us to do otherwise” is not a good way to go about things. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/54 "2003-04-29T15:09:00Z")
Well, every social system has certain values that it’s based on that are just accepted by members of that system. That’s just the way things work, it seems to me. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/55 "2003-04-29T16:02:03Z")
But they can at least be induced to change, however slowly. It’s a matter of degree more than kind, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/56 "2003-04-29T16:18:32Z")
Yes, and like I’ve said…Judaism has changed throughout the years. Could I ask a favor? Could you please restate your argument, because I think I’m missing something in it. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/57 "2003-04-29T16:24:48Z")
It’s changed very slowly… and it’s still utterly dedicated to preserving itself. Cultures can survive through and by change, or they can survive in spite of change… and I would argue that Judaism is well in the second group. Preserving tradition _because_ it’s tradition is not a very good long-term strategy. I guess that was the point I wanted to make. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/58 "2003-04-29T17:09:02Z")
And so, **TVAA** , I present to you the question that I asked before… what should Jews give up? _Kashurs_? _Shabbos_? Praying in synagouges? Passover? Yom Kippur? _Mezzuzahs_ on doors? IOW, what specifically do you think needs to be changed within Judaism? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/59 "2003-04-29T17:11:51Z")
The belief that tradition is sacred. Everything else will follow, sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/60 "2003-04-29T17:14:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*The belief that tradition is sacred. > > Everything else will follow, sooner or later. \*\* But considering that our traditions (which include the Torah and it’s teachings) are central to what makes us Jews, you are again, in essence, saying that we should simply give up Judaism. If so, I’ll just have to pass, thank you very much. Zev Steinhardt [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576.md?page=4)