# Why should Jews survive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576 "2003-04-28T02:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/61 "2003-04-29T17:45:41Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s changed very slowly… and it’s still utterly dedicated to preserving itself. Which is a statement that I strongly suspect could be made about you, as well. As to your claim of the circular argument, I find it historically lacking. The Jewish trdition certainly looks to the Talmud to explain why they follow certain paths, but I have never heard the answer to any (deeply asked) question to be “Because that is what we do” or “Becuase it says so in the Talmud or Tanakh.” Instead, I see examples of people looking to the _principles_ laid out in the Tanakh and to the _discussions_ laid out in the Talmud to discover why a certain practice is followed, and then applying the _principles_ or the _logic_ discerned to the current situation. Any review of Jewish history will show that it has been one of constant change. The change has been slower than in some societies (that are no longer here) and it may have been more controlled than in some societies (that are no longer here), but it has been inexorable and continuous. ---
**Author:** ![Hobie\_the\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Hobie\_the\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hobie_the_One)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/62 "2003-04-29T17:52:19Z")
> [@](#): > > “We do this because we do this, and it’s unthinkable for us to do otherwise” is not a good way to go about things. I think that’s often an excellent way to go about things. I respect others and remain faithful to my wife because it’s what I do. It’s unthinkable for me to do otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/63 "2003-04-29T17:58:26Z")
**tomndebb** : Remind me again why Jews aren’t supposed to mix meat and milk, or wear clothing made of two types of cloth? **Hobie the One** : But _why_ is it unthinkable? Because you do it? And you do it because it’s unthinkable? That’s just insane. Either there’s a reason for you to respect others and be faithful to your wife, or there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/64 "2003-04-29T18:14:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\ ***tomndebb** : Remind me again why Jews aren’t supposed to mix meat and milk, or wear clothing made of two types of cloth? \*\* First of all, it’s not just any two types of cloth…it’s just wool and linen that are banned. Secondly, Conservative and Reform Judaism both believe that there isn’t a prohibition against wearing mixed fabric. However, you have found two commandments for which the reasons aren’t spelled out. However, people have come up with reasons for them, throughout the years. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/65 "2003-04-29T18:17:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Remind me again why Jews aren’t supposed to mix meat and milk, or wear clothing made of two types of cloth? God told them to. That would be a principle. You appear to want to argue that they should change “just because,” but you have never provided a reason why they should. If keeping a sence of solidarity and cohesion works for them, why does it bother you so much? Given that they have been _more_ successful in survivng that other groups, perhaps you should be asking what others can do to follow their inspiring lead. My initial response was to your claim that they did not change or changed too slowly. It would appear that your only genuine complaint is that they have actually survived. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/66 "2003-04-29T18:30:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*First of all, it’s not just any two types of cloth…it’s just wool and linen that are banned. Secondly, Conservative and Reform Judaism both believe that there isn’t a prohibition against wearing mixed fabric. \*\* Minor nitpick: IIRC, Conservative Judaism (as a movement) does uphold the _halacha_ of _sha’atnez_. (Reform does not). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Hobie\_the\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Hobie\_the\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hobie_the_One)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/67 "2003-04-29T18:30:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Hobie the One: But why is it unthinkable? Because you do it? And you do it because it’s unthinkable? That’s just insane. > > Either there’s a reason for you to respect others and be faithful to your wife, or there isn’t. The reason is my belief system and the way I was raised. How is this any different from religion? The first part of your question is a bit backwards. “doing otherwise would be unthinkable.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/68 "2003-04-29T18:46:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*IIRC, Conservative Judaism (as a movement) does uphold the _halacha_ of _sha’atnez_. (Reform does not). \*\* Oops…I must have been thinking of something else. ---
**Author:** ![patternagainstuser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb9ed0/32.png) [@patternagainstuser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/patternagainstuser)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/69 "2003-04-29T21:09:20Z")
Well, what I think the OP is trying to ask is… why should Jews survive? meaning, what do they bring to the cultural “table” so to speak that gives them worth to society and the world as a whole? Why are they unique? What meaning do they have? Why are they special? This is not say that they have more of a right to survive than any other group, of course. Not by any means. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/70 "2003-04-29T21:15:55Z")
Thank you for clarifying your OP, **patternagainstuser**. For your answer, please see my response on the first page. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/71 "2003-04-29T21:17:54Z")
Oh, and incedentially, I’m curious as to why you ask about the Jews as opposed to anyone else? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/72 "2003-04-29T21:32:01Z")
We survive because we want to. We stay as we are because we like what we are. We don’y “bring” anything to the world - we _are_ the world, or at least part of it. What’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/73 "2003-04-29T21:39:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hobie the One \* > \*\*The reason is my belief system and the way I was raised. How is this any different from religion? \*\* Precisely… but that’s a whole other thread. > [@](#): > > \*\*The first part of your question is a bit backwards. “doing otherwise would be unthinkable.” \*\* Oops. I beg your pardon – my mistake. ---
**Author:** ![chattywine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@chattywine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chattywine)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/74 "2003-04-29T21:57:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*And so, **TVAA** , I present to you the question that I asked before… what should Jews give up? _Kashurs_? _Shabbos_? Praying in synagouges? Passover? Yom Kippur? _Mezzuzahs_ on doors? > > IOW, what specifically do you think needs to be changed within Judaism? > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* I vote we drop the matzoh and bring out the shafar more often! 😃 Oh, and the Jews aren’t going anywhere. FWIW Jews do contribute to the world, 30% of the [Nobel Prizes](http://www.nobel.se/) since 1905 have gone to Jews _gasps_ 0.2% of the world’s population. Imagine that. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/75 "2003-04-29T22:05:30Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Alessan \* > \*\* We don’y “bring” anything to the world - we are the world, or at least part of it._\* But the question is, are we the children? Basically, it seems to me that the OP is asking if we are the ones who bring a better day. d&r ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/76 "2003-04-29T22:25:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chattywine \* > \*\*FWIW Jews do contribute to the world, 30% of the [Nobel Prizes](http://www.nobel.se/) since 1905 have gone to Jews _gasps_ 0.2% of the world’s population. Imagine that. \*\* Are you suggesting that this is because of an emphasis on education and achievement in their culture, or something else? Are you suggesting that their accomplishments have something to do with their religion or ethnic background? Perhaps we should clarify what we mean when we start talking about “Jews”. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/77 "2003-04-29T22:48:46Z")
zev: The answer to your query is quite obvious, given the “meat” of TVAA’s posts in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/78 "2003-04-29T22:59:15Z")
**Monty** , **Zev** ’s last question was directed at **patternagainstuser** , not myself. I’m no more opposed to Judaism than I am to any other culture, religion, or ethnicity. That doesn’t logically mean I’m not opposed… just not more than against anything else. ---
**Author:** ![chattywine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@chattywine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chattywine)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/79 "2003-04-29T23:09:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Perhaps we should clarify what we mean when we start talking about “Jews”. \*\* So, what are you talking about when you talk about Jews? Chassidic, Yeshivish or Charedi, orthodox, modern orthodox, ultra-orthodox? Reform, conservative, conservadox,secular, messanic? Just the Ashkenzani or do the Shepardim get to play too? So now it’s only certain flavors of Jews that contribute junk? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/80 "2003-04-29T23:16:21Z")
No no no… are we talking about a variety of cultures, the shared aspects of those cultures, varieties of a religion, or a presumed ethnic group? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576.md?page=5)