# Why should Jews survive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576 "2003-04-28T02:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ewok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/67e7ee/32.png) [@Ewok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ewok)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/81 "2003-04-30T01:37:23Z")
> [@](#): > > I vote we drop the matzoh and bring out the shafar more often! On all other nights, we drink a rich full-bodied merlot. Why, on this night, do we drink this nasty sweet stuff? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/82 "2003-04-30T01:51:39Z")
So, **TVAA** , it seems to me that you are opposed to all religions and all cultures. Do you really think that we (all of humanity) should give up everything that makes up our culture? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/83 "2003-04-30T02:38:30Z")
> [@](#): > > One could also make the argument that Judaism’s success at getting its transmitters to identify as Jews first and foremost is part of what has historically made Jews such excellent scapegoats. I think you have it half right, only backwards. What you have here is a classic “chicken and egg” scenario. The Jews were prevented from assimilating/integrating and were shunted into the ghetto and the shtetl. This, and a history of forced expulsions, pogroms, and massacres kept the Jews apart from gentile society, so they were then seen as being mysterious, clannish outsiders, which in turn served to breed additional suspicion and persecution. It was a cycle which fed on itself. The scapegoating of the Jews wasn’t caused by Judaism, but by their exclusion from Gentile society. ---
**Author:** ![patternagainstuser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb9ed0/32.png) [@patternagainstuser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/patternagainstuser)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/84 "2003-04-30T03:34:31Z")
why I ask about Jews? because I am one. I’m an ardent vaguely iconoclastic secularist myself, but i’ve been talking to a lot of Jews…they seem somewhat concerned about the future, and this emphasis on youth and the next generation of Jews gives me a burden I don’t want to bear. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/85 "2003-04-30T03:47:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by patternagainstuser \* > \*\*why I ask about Jews? > > because I am one. I’m an ardent vaguely iconoclastic secularist myself, but i’ve been talking to a lot of Jews…they seem somewhat concerned about the future, and this emphasis on youth and the next generation of Jews gives me a burden I don’t want to bear. \*\* I was just talking about this with a non-Jewish friend/co-worker earlier today. Certainly Jews aren’t the only ethnocoltural/religious group to be fond of the idea of having their children marry someone from the same group, but sometimes I feel when I talk to elder family members that if I don’t marry a nice Jewish boy, I will be singlehandedly responsible for the extermination of the Jewish people, or at least whatever Hitler didn’t quite manage to pull off. Maybe it’s just very effective Jewish guilt, but it seems like an awfully big burden for an individual to bear. And it’s not like the option of my hypothetical husband converting would even make a difference, or that my children would be Jewish in any case because I’m Jewish. Somehow converts are never treated quite the same way; the wife of one of my cousins converted, and no matter how many candles she lights on Shabbat or how often she drives the kids to Hebrew school, many family members will never quite consider her Jewish. Actually, it’s kind of ironic, since she’s so much more observant than I am, or than most fo the rest of the fmaily is. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/86 "2003-04-30T12:47:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \* > \*\*I was just talking about this with a non-Jewish friend/co-worker earlier today. Certainly Jews aren’t the only ethnocoltural/religious group to be fond of the idea of having their children marry someone from the same group, but sometimes I feel when I talk to elder family members that if I don’t marry a nice Jewish boy, I will be singlehandedly responsible for the extermination of the Jewish people, or at least whatever Hitler didn’t quite manage to pull off. > > Maybe it’s just very effective Jewish guilt, but it seems like an awfully big burden for an individual to bear. \*\* True. But it is part of the problem. Each person that “marries out” and does not raise Jewish children _does_ exacerbate the situation. I wouldn’t lay the “Hitler” guilt on them, but they are definitely part of the problem. > [@](#): > > \*\* > And it’s not like the option of my hypothetical husband converting would even make a difference, or that my children would be Jewish in any case because I’m Jewish. Somehow converts are never treated quite the same way; the wife of one of my cousins converted, and no matter how many candles she lights on Shabbat or how often she drives the kids to Hebrew school, many family members will never quite consider her Jewish. \*\* And that’s a shame. Why do they act that way? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Actually, it’s kind of ironic, since she’s so much more observant than I am, or than most fo the rest of the fmaily is. \*\* I’ve often heard examples of that before. Maybe it’s because they don’t take being Jewish for granted the same way that people who were born Jewish do. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/87 "2003-04-30T13:07:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*True. But it is part of the problem. Each person that “marries out” and does not raise Jewish children _does_ exacerbate the situation. I wouldn’t lay the “Hitler” guilt on them, but they are definitely part of the problem. \*\* What ‘problem’? In what way are these individuals obligated to pass on a culture that they were born in? If they wish to continue the traditions, fine. If they don’t want to continue the traditions, why isn’t that also fine? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/88 "2003-04-30T14:19:39Z")
Let’s say someone examines the rules given in Jewish tradition. What principles can they derive from them? Once they’re established the underlying principles, what meta-principles can they derive from them? Is there anything that can be derived from Jewish tradition (or even tradition in general, religious or otherwise) that isn’t ultimately “do this because tradition says so”? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/89 "2003-04-30T15:00:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Let’s say someone examines the rules given in Jewish tradition. What principles can they derive from them? \*\* Compassion, the belief that knowledge is good, and the belief that there is a fundamental order to the world. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/90 "2003-04-30T15:33:07Z")
\*\*Zev, \*\* I’m going to tell you a little story which will, perhaps, elucidate why I don’t find it as important as you do to marry someone Jewish, or to have my hypothetical future husband convert. I certainly wouldn’t reject a nice Jewish boy, but OTOH I’m not going to reject a nice non-Jewish boy, either, just because he’s not Jewish. When I was in college, I used to go to my grandparents’ house for Jewish holidays; I was in NY, and they were near Atlantic City, which was a cheap 3-hour bus ride as opposed to an expensive 3-hour flight home. Freshman year, I went there for Rosh Hashanah, and the night before, they asked me if I wanted to go to synagogue with them the next morning. I said sure, just wake me up in time to take a shower and get dressed, OK? Well, when I woke up at 11:00 the next morning, the house was empty; for some goofy reason or another, they decided not to wake me up. When they finally got home, my grandfather was very grumpy. He cornered me in the bathroom, and we had the following conversation: Him: “Why didn’t you come to services with us this morning?” Me: “You didn’t wake me up.” Him: “Aren’t you proud of your heritage?” Me: “Of course I am! But you didn’t wake me up, and besides, what does that have to do with anything?” Him: “I want Jewish great-grandchildren!” (I was dating a nice half-Mexican boy at the time, although his maternal grandmother was Jewish, so I guess he was technically Jewish after all, but that’s another story.) Me: “Grandpop, I’m 18 years old! I’m not getting married or having babies anytime soon.” [long grumpy pause] Me: “Grandpop, can I ask you a question?” Him (smiling, finally): “Sure, honey, anything you want.” Me: “Do you believe in God?” Him: “No, but what does that have to do with anything?” Well, my point is that sometimes I think my life would be simpler in some ways if I believed in God, but fortunately or unfortunately, I’m an agnostic. Given that fact, I find it extremely hypocritical, not to mention disrespectful of those who do sincerely have faith, to go through the motions of observing a religion of which I do not believe in most of the fundamental tenets. And even if I did believe in God, I honestly don’t see how repeating a bunch of words written by someone else, especially when they’re in a language I don’t understand, is going to accomplish anything. The majority of these words have no real resonance for me, and if I don’t believe them, isn’t lying a sin anyway? However, I also believe that none of the foregoing has much to do with whether I should take pride in my cultural heritage. If I married and had children with a non-Jewish man, would I teach them about Judaism and about the rest of their cultural heritage? Absolutely. Where’s the contradiction in that? (Oh, and BTW, I think it’s wrong and hypocritical not to treat a convert in the same way as someone who was born Jewish. I honestly don’t understand why people do that. In the case of my family, I think it’s more out of absent-mindedness. Plus, I guess on some level it’s weird to think of a nice Scandinavian woman named Christina as a Jew.) ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/91 "2003-04-30T16:56:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*Compassion, the belief that knowledge is good, and the belief that there is a fundamental order to the world. \*\* Okay. Now, why is Judaism necessary to transmit these ideas? For that matter, why are you certain that these ideas are actually correct and worthy of passing on? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/92 "2003-04-30T16:58:04Z")
**Eva Luna** : I think it is a _very_ good thing for all the individuals involved that I am not personally acquainted with your grandfather. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/93 "2003-04-30T17:25:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\ ***Eva Luna** : I think it is a _very_ good thing for all the individuals involved that I am not personally acquainted with your grandfather. \*\* What do you mean, specifically? Or am I being obtuse? He was honest with me, and I, for one, appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/94 "2003-04-30T17:58:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Okay. Now, why is Judaism necessary to transmit these ideas? For that matter, why are you certain that these ideas are actually correct and worthy of passing on? \*\* Well, it’s not. You don’t have to be Jewish to believe in compassion, education, and an orderly universe. And I personally believe that compassion and education are good things, but I guess if you want to be cruel and ignorant, it’s your business. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/95 "2003-04-30T18:15:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \* > \*\* > Well, my point is that sometimes I think my life would be simpler in some ways if I believed in God, but fortunately or unfortunately, I’m an agnostic. Given that fact, I find it extremely hypocritical, not to mention disrespectful of those who do sincerely have faith, to go through the motions of observing a religion of which I do not believe in most of the fundamental tenets. \*\* Interesting take. But yet ask almost any Orthodox Jew whether or not they’d rather you perform the rituals despite being an agnostic, you’ll get close to 100% (if not 100%) of them telling you to do so. So, I would gather (both from my own personal feelings and my experience with Orthodox Jews in general) that Orthodox Jews would not consider it disrespectful to them if you kept the rituals even without the belief. We’d rather you kept kosher, even if you don’t believe. We’d rather you go to _shul_ on _Rosh Hashanna_, even if you’re not sure if your prayer are being directed anywhere. > [@](#): > > \*\* > And even if I did believe in God, I honestly don’t see how repeating a bunch of words written by someone else, especially when they’re in a language I don’t understand, is going to accomplish anything. The majority of these words have no real resonance for me, and if I don’t believe them, isn’t lying a sin anyway? \*\* Firstly, if you don’t understand Hebrew, feel free to pray in English, Spanish, Swahili or any other language with which you are conversant. Find the words/language/concepts in the prayers archaic? There is nothing stopping you from composing your own prayers and saying them as well. > [@](#): > > \*\* > However, I also believe that none of the foregoing has much to do with whether I should take pride in my cultural heritage. If I married and had children with a non-Jewish man, would I teach them about Judaism and about the rest of their cultural heritage? Absolutely. Where’s the contradiction in that? \*\* In your case, the “damage” is not as bad, in that you, yourself are Jewish and your children will be Jewish. But, at some point down the road, eventually your descendants will not be Jewish. And while you, yourself, will not make that much of a difference (after all, you are only one person), it is the one person multiplied by the vast number of Jews who are intermarrying which is causing the demographic problem that the Jewish people face today. > [@](#): > > \*\* > (Oh, and BTW, I think it’s wrong and hypocritical not to treat a convert in the same way as someone who was born Jewish. I honestly don’t understand why people do that. In the case of my family, I think it’s more out of absent-mindedness. Plus, I guess on some level it’s weird to think of a nice Scandinavian woman named Christina as a Jew.) \*\* “Christina” is an odd name for a Jew, but so be it. As for the story you presented, I’m not sure how that illustrates anything other than the fact that your grandfather wants his descendants to be Jewish (even if he doesn’t believe in God). I can offer some guesses as to why your grandfather is insistent on Jewish descendants, but other than the fact that he was unable to articulate why, and the fact that he wants this even while not believing in God, I’m not sure how this explains your motivation. N.B. I don’t want you to think I’m attacking you. I’m not. I happen to like you as a poster. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Ewok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/67e7ee/32.png) [@Ewok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ewok)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/96 "2003-04-30T18:31:55Z")
Sounds like what we need is [Open Source Judaism](http://www.opensourcejudaism.com/) . ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/97 "2003-04-30T19:11:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > * * * > > As for the story you presented, I’m not sure how that illustrates anything other than the fact that your grandfather wants his descendants to be Jewish (even if he doesn’t believe in God). I can offer some guesses as to why your grandfather is insistent on Jewish descendants, but other than the fact that he was unable to articulate why, and the fact that he wants this even while not believing in God, I’m not sure how this explains your motivation. > > N.B. I don’t want you to think I’m attacking you. I’m not. I happen to like you as a poster. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* FWIW, I didn’t perceive your comments that way, at all. I am sometimes blessed, and sometimes cursed, with the ability to understand all sorts of viewpoints that don’t agree with my own. I certainly understand from an intellectual standpoint why you think it’s important for me (and other Jews who don’t necessarily believe in God or in the rituals that come with being an observant Jew), even if on a certain level the logic escapes me. In fact, I’d love it if you could expound a little more on the theological reasoning behind the value of participating in rituals which, if followed to the letter by someone who does not believe in God, would (in my view, anyway) result in lying. As for my grandfather: well, my mom complains sometimes that when I’m explaining my reasoning for something, I have a bad habit of letting my mouth jump ahead of my brain, which results in my leaving out several steps in the logic underlying my explanations. Sorry if I’ve done that here. My point was basically that if, as you have commented, being a Jew should necessarily involve believing in God, then that discounts the value of carrying on all the other sociocultural parts of being a Jew, which I don’t think is at all what you would like to see happen. You _would_ like to see all the neato little cultural things carried on, whether they be humor, food, literature, music, liturgical Hebrew, etc. carried on, even by those who don’t necessarily hold 100% to the religious tenets of Judaism, right? (BTW, small hijack: check out my favorite Jewish web site! [www.jewishgen.org](http://www.jewishgen.org) I may be an agnostic, but gosh-darnit, my family tree is up there, and I do a bit of volunteer translation for them here and there. They’re some of my favorite virtual people, and I’ve learned an awful lot from the site.) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/98 "2003-04-30T19:46:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \* > \*\* > I am sometimes blessed, and sometimes cursed, with the ability to understand all sorts of viewpoints that don’t agree with my own. I certainly understand from an intellectual standpoint why you think it’s important for me (and other Jews who don’t necessarily believe in God or in the rituals that come with being an observant Jew), even if on a certain level the logic escapes me. In fact, I’d love it if you could expound a little more on the theological reasoning behind the value of participating in rituals which, if followed to the letter by someone who does not believe in God, would (in my view, anyway) result in lying. \*\* Well, you could look at it from several viewpoints. Firstly, Judaism has generally been a religion that is concerned with one’s actions, rather than one’s faith. IOW, one is rewarded for the good deeds one does, regardless of the motivation behind those deeds. It makes little practical difference if you give charity. Whether you do it because you need a tax write-off, it makes you feel better that you’re helping out other people, you’d like to be able to brag about it, or simply because God told you to; the important thing is that you are doing good. Your intentions don’t really matter all that much - the fact of the matter is that the person or organization you are helping out benefits. There is a famous Talmudic dictum regarding this. _Mitoch shelo lishma, bah lishma_. Through doing something not for it’s own sake, you will come to do it for it’s own sake. That’s not to undermine the importance in believing in God. It certainly is important. But the belief in God is independent of the commandments (indeed, it is one of them). Simply because one does not perform one commandment is no reason not to perform any of them. Secondly, you could look at them as cultural ties that bind us together. For millenia, what has identified us as Jews? It was the fact that we held to Jewish law and Jewish customs. We kept kosher. We kept _shabbos_. We prayed in _shul_. We had the _seder_s on Passover. By doing these things, you continue to identify yourself as Jewish and, in doing so, perhaps keep the spark of Jewishness alive in your descendants. Your grandchildren will remember that you used to light candles every Friday night, and maybe they will be inspired to as well. But if you don’t, then from whence would they know? You have the ability to impart these values to your children and grandchildren, perhaps staving off for another generation or two the point where they cease to both be Jewish and identify as Jews. Thirdly, since you are an agnostic (as opposed to an athiest), you could view it as a variation on Pascal’s wager. Lastly, keeping kosher even though you don’t believe in God is no more lying than is voting even if don’t like either of the candidates. You may think of it as hypocritical, and I can see your reasoning. Perhaps you’re equating Jewish rituals with those of other religions (such as the Roman Catholic ritual of the Eucharist, of which only Catholics can partake, and of which it _would_ be disrespectful to partake of if not of that group, since those are the rules of that relgion, or the Islamic ritual of the Hajj, of which non-Muslims are not permitted to attend since only Muslims can go to Mecca). But Judaism consists of many commandments, and each of those is (for the most part) independent of each other. So you don’t keep _shabbos_, but at least keep kosher. So you don’t keep a _mezzuzah_ on your door, at least pray daily. So you don’t fast on _Yom Kippur_, at least hear the _shofar_ blowing on _Rosh HaShanna_. While the ideal is to keep all the commandments, no where does it say in Judaism “well, you can’t do them all, so don’t do any.” You’ll note that in the Torah, there is little mention of the afterlife. There is no description of heaven, no promises of eternal salvation and likewise, very little mention of punishment in the afterlife as well. The reason for this is because we are concerned with _this_ world. We are here to conduct ourselves and live our lives in _this_ world. Again, I don’t want to undermine the importance of the next world either. It certainly is important. But the commandments are meant for us to keep while we are alive in the here and now. > [@](#): > > \*\* > My point was basically that if, as you have commented, being a Jew should necessarily involve believing in God, then that discounts the value of carrying on all the other sociocultural parts of being a Jew, which I don’t think is at all what you would like to see happen. You _would_ like to see all the neato little cultural things carried on, whether they be humor, food, literature, music, liturgical Hebrew, etc. carried on, even by those who don’t necessarily hold 100% to the religious tenets of Judaism, right? > \*\* Correct. If it is done with a belief in God, all the better. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/99 "2003-04-30T20:43:19Z")
**Zev** ’s last post was not directed at me, but I’m presuming to respond to it anyway. My apologies to **Eva Luna** if she disapproves. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*Well, you could look at it from several viewpoints. > > Firstly, Judaism has generally been a religion that is concerned with one’s actions, rather than one’s faith. IOW, one is rewarded for the good deeds one does, regardless of the motivation behind those deeds. It makes little practical difference if you give charity. Whether you do it because you need a tax write-off, it makes you feel better that you’re helping out other people, you’d like to be able to brag about it, or simply because God told you to; the important thing is that you are doing good. \*\* But why is not eating meat and dairy together ‘good’? Why is it ‘good’ to light candles on Friday evenings? Why is it ‘bad’ to eat pork? Without the belief that a deity told you to do these things (presumably for reasons of His own), these acts are (or at least appear to be) morally neutral. Why do you suggest that maintaining these things in and of themselves is virtuous? > [@](#): > > \*\*But the belief in God is independent of the commandments (indeed, it is one of them). Simply because one does not perform one commandment is no reason not to perform any of them. \*\* But if there is no belief in God, there are no ‘commandments’: who commanded? What makes any of the ‘commandments’ worth following if they’re not from God? I’m not denying that there might be reasons to follow them, but what _are_ they? > [@](#): > > \*\*Secondly, you could look at them as cultural ties that bind us together. For millenia, what has identified us as Jews? It was the fact that we held to Jewish law and Jewish customs. \*\* There’s a section of The Canterbury Tales where the Wife of Bath discusses many earthy matters, among them the physiological differences between men and women. Her explanation as to why men’s and women’s bodies were different? So that we could distinguish between them. :rolleyes: It’s not that your customs _identify_ you as Jews… they’re what make you Jews in the first place. Or is there some other standard? Please, present it – I’d like to know what it is. > [@](#): > > \*\*Thirdly, since you are an agnostic (as opposed to an athiest), you could view it as a variation on Pascal’s wager. \*\* I’m not even going to bother. > [@](#): > > \*\*Lastly, keeping kosher even though you don’t believe in God is no more lying than is voting even if don’t like either of the candidates. You may think of it as hypocritical, and I can see your reasoning. Perhaps you’re equating Jewish rituals with those of other religions (such as the Roman Catholic ritual of the Eucharist, of which only Catholics can partake, and of which it _would_ be disrespectful to partake of if not of that group, since those are the rules of that relgion, or the Islamic ritual of the Hajj, of which non-Muslims are not permitted to attend since only Muslims can go to Mecca). But Judaism consists of many commandments, and each of those is (for the most part) independent of each other. So you don’t keep _shabbos_, but at least keep kosher. So you don’t keep a _mezzuzah_ on your door, at least pray daily. So you don’t fast on _Yom Kippur_, at least hear the _shofar_ blowing on _Rosh HaShanna_. While the ideal is to keep all the commandments, no where does it say in Judaism “well, you can’t do them all, so don’t do any.” \*\* But why should anyone care about keeping _any_ of them? What makes them valuable? If they’re all instructions from God, then they’re all worth keeping; while it may be better to keep some than none, keeping all would be much better than either. If they’re not instructions from God, then what makes they valuable as a group? If they’re not valuable as a group, then what makes they valuable individually? > [@](#): > > **But the commandments are meant for us to keep while we are alive in the here and now.** _But why should anyone keep them?_ ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576/100 "2003-04-30T20:50:33Z")
Yeah, I know the Pascal’s Wager thing is a bit thin, but it was worth throwing in anyway. In any event, **TVAA** , I’m afraid you have me at a complete loss. You disagree with all culture and religion. You view them as mostly junk. That being the case, I’m not sure what answer I can give you that will satisfy you. I can give you the religious approach, but you don’t like that. I can give you the cultural approach, but you don’t like that. **Captain Amazing** tried to give you the simple, practical approach (knowledge is good…) but you didn’t like that either. I’m not knocking you, but you seem to think (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that the only good way for the world to proceed is if we are all some homogonized bunch with no differences in the way we do things, behave or act toward others. You think we should change simply for the sake fo change, that anything should be tried simply because it _can_ be tried (and to hell with the consequences). I don’t see the world becoming such a place anytime soon, and, truth be told, I don’t want to see the world become such a place. I wouldn’t want a world where we all follow the same customs and behave in the same way. Variety is the spice of life and I feel all the more enriched knowing people who don’t think the way that I do or act the way that I act. Zev Steinhardt [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-jews-survive/171576.md?page=6)