# Why should police be allowed to lie? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383 "2014-06-09T03:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/21 "2014-06-09T15:23:38Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > If you know you are innocent and never touched the murder weapon, but police say they have your prints on the weapon, why wouldn’t you conclude the police are willing to frame you for just about anything? What’s your play there if the police are willing and able to fabricate evidence? The theory also assumes that people have faith in the justice system…that an actually innocent person believes he won’t be convicted by a fair justice system. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/22 "2014-06-09T15:52:44Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Not being allowed to lie would make undercover missions very short. > > Shifty Prep: “What, you some cop?” > Overcover RCMP: “You know it! High five!” Although you’d think the bright red jacket and the horse would give it away. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/23 "2014-06-09T15:56:22Z")
Actually, there are 4 words that any suspect can use that prevents police from lying to them. “I want a lawyer.” ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/24 "2014-06-09T16:08:11Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Not being allowed to lie would make undercover missions very short. > > Shifty Prep: “What, you some cop?” > Overcover RCMP: “You know it! High five!” Well in the US you have to ask them three times, cops are allowed to lie the first two times you ask. True story. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/25 "2014-06-09T16:24:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The game theory works out fine on that statement: if you’re guilty and don’t talk, you get a long sentence. If you’re guilty and do talk, you’ll get a lighter sentence. If you’re innocent, you’ll know they are going to keep lying to you and you better stop answering questions. The problem with three, of course, is that an innocent person hauled in by the police might be terrified, unfamiliar with the ins and outs of the legal system, and exhausted after a long interrogation. Allowing police to lie during investigations makes sense, but letting them do it during interrogations creates a major risk of false confessions. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/26 "2014-06-09T16:33:52Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > Well in the US you have to ask them three times, cops are allowed to lie the first two times you ask. True story. :rolleyes: Interestingly, [the same rule applies](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmFSW6p94rg) to international men of mystery. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/27 "2014-06-09T16:41:47Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > If you know you are innocent and never touched the murder weapon, but police say they have your prints on the weapon, why wouldn’t you conclude the police are willing to frame you for just about anything? What’s your play there if the police are willing and able to fabricate evidence? My play is that I shut the fuck up until I can consult with my attorney. But then the only other play I have in my handbook is not to talk to them. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/28 "2014-06-09T16:45:58Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Actually, there are 4 words that any suspect can use that prevents police from lying to them. > > “I want a lawyer.” That doesn’t prevent the police from lying to them. It prevents further questioning. They can keep making all the declarative statements they like. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/29 "2014-06-09T17:21:39Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Actually, there are 4 words that any suspect can use that prevents police from lying to them. > > “I want a lawyer.” Having received my legal degree from _Law & Order_ ;), the cops can lie to your attorney as well. What they can’t do is lie to the court. So a smart defense attorney won’t respond to anything the police claim about evidence until that evidence is enshrined in a court document. Of course, that’s not to say that some prosecutors and defense lawyers have some ethical standards and agreements in place to avoid such shenanigans, but it’s not a universal given. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/30 "2014-06-09T17:24:19Z")
A very common thing is that two bad guys get caught. They are interrogated separately. Let’s say I am questioning James in room 1, and my partner is questioning Harry in room 2. There is nothing wrong with my telling James something along the lines of “The first one to tell us what happened will be the one that we tell the DA cooperated with us. Your partner is in the next room and he’s already started telling us some interesting stuff.” Now Harry may have said “I want a lawyer” and then clammed up. That doesn’t prevent me from trying to make James think that Harry is spilling his guts and trying to blame it all on James. That’s simply good police work. The [home-made lie detector](http://www.snopes.com/legal/colander.asp) might be pushing it a bit, though. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/31 "2014-06-09T17:47:37Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > There is nothing wrong with my telling James something along the lines of “The first one to tell us what happened will be the one that we tell the DA cooperated with us. Your partner is in the next room and he’s already started telling us some interesting stuff.” Now Harry may have said “I want a lawyer” and then clammed up. That doesn’t prevent me from trying to make James think that Harry is spilling his guts and trying to blame it all on James. That’s simply good police work… It is not a given that this tactic is “simply good police work.” It’s certainly common, and maybe even normal, but the questions posed by the OP is SHOULD it be considered a normal and acceptable police tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/32 "2014-06-09T17:50:08Z")
Well, some degree of dissembling is absolutely necessary for law enforcement. What good would an undercover investigation be if undercover officers couldn’t lie? I strongly believe that tactics like the one **Clothahump** describes do nothing except create an adversarial relationship between the police and the public, though. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/33 "2014-06-09T18:14:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That doesn’t prevent the police from lying to them. It prevents further questioning. They can keep making all the declarative statements they like. Be careful when you guys come visit us nice guys north of the border. We aren’t quite as rigid about “preventing further questioning” as you guys are. > **[Canada high court rules no right to counsel during interrogation](https://www.jurist.org/news/2010/10/canada-high-court-rules-no-right-to-counsel-during-interrogation/)** > > \[JURIST\] The Supreme Court of Canada \[official website\] ruled \[judgment text\] 5-4 Friday that Canadians do not have the right to have counsel present during custodial interrogations. The court held th... ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/34 "2014-06-09T18:54:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That doesn’t prevent the police from lying to them. It prevents further questioning. They can keep making all the declarative statements they like. Well, yeah, but hopefully a trained lawyer (or just an uninvolved, unemotional third party) is more adept at figuring out when the cops are BSing. E.g. “We have his prints on the gun !” “Fascinating. Might I see the expert’s report, please ? Where, when and by whom was the gun found, BTW ?” etc. Or, more likely, “Are you formally charging my client with anything at this time ? No ? Good day, sir. When come back bring case.” ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/35 "2014-06-09T19:04:36Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > It is not a given that this tactic is “simply good police work.” It’s certainly common, and maybe even normal, but the questions posed by the OP is SHOULD it be considered a normal and acceptable police tactic. Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/36 "2014-06-09T19:10:04Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Absolutely. Phew. I was worried there might be something to argue about. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/37 "2014-06-09T21:55:59Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I never understood how “We found your prints on the murder weapon/your partner spilled the beans/we have a rock solid case against you … so you might as well confess” works. > > Either they really do have a solid case, don’t need a confession and why would they want to give me a quick and dirty way to reduce my sentence with any kind of deal; or more likely they don’t actually have that and why should I confess to anything ? I realize most criminals aren’t the brightest spoons in the shed, but from a game theory standpoint the gambit makes no sense to me. Court is where you should tell your version of events to make yourself out to be the good guy, not the interrogation chamber. But police take advantage of people’s desire to be seen in a positive light by encouraging people to tell a story that makes the criminal look good. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/38 "2014-06-09T22:03:54Z")
Can we now start ANOTHER thread about how you should never talk to cops so that the LEOs can patiently explain that since they know if you’re a suspect or not you have nothing to worry about helping them out in their investigation? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/39 "2014-06-10T00:26:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The problem with three, of course, is that an innocent person hauled in by the police might be terrified, unfamiliar with the ins and outs of the legal system, and exhausted after a long interrogation. This is true. But if you google the phrase: “police officer confesses” you will find many example of people who are seemingly familiar with the ins and out of the legal system who allowed themselves to be interrogated without a lawyer present. I think that a lot of people are so convinced of their skill when it comes to engaging in a battle of wits that they will engage in one even when it is foolish to do so. For this reason, I wouldn’t be surprised if participants in Great Debates will be _less_ likely than the average person to ask for a lawyer early in the interrogation. Also, suppose that there is a homicide in the neighborhood, and the police start questioning innocent me. At first, like most good citizens, I will be glad to answer questions because I think I am helping them find someone else. But what if they really are seeing me as a person of interest? I should, of course, sense that, and realize that I need a lawyer. But the police interrogator might ask the questions in a way so that I don’t sense the need for a lawyer for a long time, during which I might trip myself up with statements that could be misinterpreted. It is easy to say only idiots would talk without a lawyer, except that non-idiots do it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383/40 "2014-06-10T00:41:19Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Also, suppose that there is a homicide in the neighborhood, and the police start questioning innocent me. At first, like most good citizens, I will be glad to answer questions because I think I am helping them find someone else. But what if they really are seeing me as a person of interest? I should, of course, sense that, and realize that I need a lawyer. But the police interrogator might ask the questions in a way so that I don’t sense the need for a lawyer for a long time, during which I might trip myself up with statements that could be misinterpreted. If they haven’t told you your Miranda rights, they can’t use anything you say other than to informally direct their further inquiries. They can’t write down what you said and use it in court, nor can a police officer say in court “but when we talked together before their arrest, they said…” - that’s hearsay, and not admissible for rather obvious reasons. If they \*have \*told you your Miranda rights, that’s kind of a hint they see you as a person of interest 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-police-be-allowed-to-lie/690383.md?page=3)