# Why should Santa be regarded differently than God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442 "2019-01-09T02:20:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/21 "2019-01-09T15:17:37Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I can’t help but think, though, that a significant number of these posters wouldn’t have a problem with someone proclaiming “God does not exist”. Why would you think “a significant number of these posters” would think and/or do such a thing? It is not the atheists that make it a habit of trying to convert schoolchildren when it comes to religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/22 "2019-01-09T15:41:00Z")
The only case where a teacher should be telling students that God does or does not exist is if the teacher is at a school with that specific purpose. This applies even at the college level, where the students are adults. Likewise for someone telling it to their work subordinates, or any other situation with a power imbalance. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/23 "2019-01-09T16:06:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why would you think “a significant number of these posters” would think and/or do such a thing? It is not the atheists that make it a habit of trying to convert schoolchildren when it comes to religious beliefs. He probably thinks that because there are quite obviously more religion haters around here than Santa haters. I disagree with his thinking but I don’t doubt that’s where it’s coming from. Anyway, the OP is backwards. Santa and God are two different things, so why should they be treated the same? Because they are both supernatural? Should a lucky rabbit’s foot also be treated the same as God and Santa? Santa is a game we play with our children. God is a cornerstone in many people’s life, with massive tendrils throughout society - which many zealous atheists think is a cornerstone for much of the bad in society. Why in the world _would_ you regard them the same? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/24 "2019-01-09T16:14:27Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I actually think Santa is sort of a mock lesson for kids to walk them through their eventual disbelief in god. > > You’re convinced someone magical is out there. He knows everything you do. He’ll reward you if you’re good and punish you if you’re bad. Everyone around you seems to believe in him too, reinforcing that belief. > > And then you realize that something you believed so hard, something you took for granted as being true, was actually a mass delusion inflicted on you by your society. And you realize you were fooled. > > That’s very similar to the steps you take as a kid on your way to rejecting a belief in god after seeing it for what it is. > > Funny enough, you’re actually given much more evidence that Santa exists than God does. Someone gives you those presents every year. It’s fraudulent evidence, but it makes more sense to believe it to be real than something with no evidence at all. > > I’m a little surprised no one else seems to realize this, and that religious parents don’t discourage a belief in Santa from the start to prevent this pathway from forming in their child’s mind. I guess we see that even with this lesson, most kids turn out religious anyway, but certainly among at least some of the unbelieving, this lesson formed part of the cognitive toolset they used to get to where they are. I think you may be making a mistake I’ve seen quite a few atheists make: you’re assuming not only that God isn’t real (which of course is what makes you a nonbeliever) but that people (at least, thinking adults) who genuinely believe in God aren’t real either (which is demonstrably false). When you learned that Santa Claus wasn’t real, you learned that all the grown-ups who were telling you that Santa was real were playing make-believe, and that what Santa supposedly did was really done by your parents pretending to be Santa. The people who were “deluding” you were not themselves deluded: they knew the truth and expected you to know it too, later if not currently. But that’s not what belief in God is, so you couldn’t have been “seeing it for what it is.” That’s why “you’re actually given much more evidence that Santa exists than God does”: when you actually believe something is real, you don’t have to manufacture fraudulent evidence for it. Yes, there are some Christian parents who do worry that the Santa Claus myth will undermine belief in God. And yes, there are some nominal Christians who don’t actually believe in God. But there are also plenty of sincere Christians who don’t worry about Santa because, well, apples and oranges. They no more think “If my kid finds out Santa isn’t real, they’ll think God sin’t real” than they think “If my kid finds out Harry Potter isn’t real, they’ll think Harry Truman isn’t real,” or “If my kid finds out Luke Skywalker didn’t really land on Dagobah, they’ll think Neil Armstrong didn’t really land on the moon.” ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/25 "2019-01-09T17:44:31Z")
For the record, I’m an atheist who lives in a country that supposedly has a constitutional separation of church and state, and would be quite bothered by a first grade teacher telling their students that gods don’t exist as part of their class instruction. (I’d also be bothered if the teacher taught that gods _do_ exist, obviously.) Regarding persons who are _not_ acting as agents of the state, whether one should spill the beans about God or Santa depends heavily upon the circumstances of the statement and the expected outcome. I consider the Santa myth much less harmful than the christian myth, and so am happy to avoid actively refuting it - though if I were asked straight-up whether I believed I would have to say no, because I’m not a liar. If they just asked whether he’s real I’d promptly turn it around and ask the kid whether he’s real, and let the kid answer her own question. I don’t go around telling kids that God isn’t real because I don’t want their parents pissed at me, but if the kid asks me directly I will be much less likely to dodge a flat ‘No’ answer. If the kid is old enough to ask then they’re old enough for their parents to have to work a little harder to indoctrinate them. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/26 "2019-01-09T18:40:40Z")
I’ll get worked up about this, or about a teacher telling children that there is no God, once we start enforcing the constitution and separating church and state. But as long as teachers can have the 10 commandments hanging on their wall, or as long as textbooks continue spewing drivel about intelligent design in public classrooms, I find this pretty hard to get worked up about. If these kids have such a tenous grasp on religion that being exposed to a single teacher who doesn’t buy into it makes them lose their faith, they weren’t all that religious to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/27 "2019-01-09T19:09:09Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > . But as long as teachers can have the 10 commandments hanging on their wall, or as long as textbooks continue spewing drivel about intelligent design in public classrooms, I find this pretty hard to get worked up about. Where are these classrooms? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/28 "2019-01-09T19:16:27Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Where are these classrooms? [Here is a map from a couple of years ago](https://io9.gizmodo.com/a-map-showing-which-u-s-public-schools-teach-creationi-1515717148) showing where Creationism is taught in public and private schools. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/29 "2019-01-09T19:35:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Where are these classrooms? My wife is a teacher in Southern California and in the last 5 years she’s seen: 1. A science teacher who skips teaching Evolution in his middle school life science class every single year, claiming he just doesn’t have time but bragging to his colleagues that he’s doing it on purpose because he doesn’t believe in evolution (he also does the same thing with global warming) 2. A PE teacher who wrote a letter to all the science teachers at her school asking them not to teach evolution 3. At her current school alone, 5 teachers with one or more of the following hanging in their classroom: poster with the 10 commandments, a crucifix, religious painting 4. one of the teachers from 3 is always pushing for class prayer time. Thankfully their principal is sane. So to answer your question-- it happens in SoCal, and I’m sure it happens in 49 other states too. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/30 "2019-01-09T19:51:01Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > Belief in Santa is a harmless delusion that nobody expects a teenager still to have. Belief in god is a harmful one that people keep to adulthood and should be called out and corrected as soon as possible. I don’t believe Jesus is The Savior, but if somebody starts trying to convince me he is I’m not going to try and ruin his faith. Honestly doing this is just as bad as Jehovah’s Witness in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/31 "2019-01-09T20:02:43Z")
Going down the “Santa origins” rabbit-hole lead me to [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Santeclaus_with_Much_Delight) 1821 poem, with the verses > [@](#): > > To some I gave a pretty doll, > To some a peg-top, or a ball; > No crackers, cannons, squibs, or rockets, > To blow their eyes up, or their pockets. So “You’ll shoot your eye out, kid.” goes _way_ back! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/32 "2019-01-09T20:24:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > My wife is a teacher in Southern California and in the last 5 years she’s seen: > > 1. A science teacher who skips teaching Evolution in his middle school life science class every single year, claiming he just doesn’t have time but bragging to his colleagues that he’s doing it on purpose because he doesn’t believe in evolution (he also does the same thing with global warming) > 2. A PE teacher who wrote a letter to all the science teachers at her school asking them not to teach evolution > 3. At her current school alone, 5 teachers with one or more of the following hanging in their classroom: poster with the 10 commandments, a crucifix, religious painting > 4. one of the teachers from 3 is always pushing for class prayer time. Thankfully their principal is sane. > > So to answer your question-- it happens in SoCal, and I’m sure it happens in 49 other states too. None of those examples are about classroom textbooks teaching Creationism and there’s no dots on California in the article Czarcasm linked. Still, I must say, I am a little surprised by the extent of it given it would take one angry parent to call the ACLU to get it into court. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/33 "2019-01-09T20:53:23Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > My stepsister is a devout Christian and she’s told all her kids Santa doesn’t exist. I’m atheist and my two year old believes in Santa. My stepsister’s kids however blurt out that Santa isn’t real at every opportunity at Christmas, as they’re _those_ kind of Christians, and I find it such a shame. **Honestly, I’m half-tempted, if they break my daughter’s heart, to tell them God doesn’t exist, either**. Can I ask you about the bolded part? Why would this bother you so much? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/34 "2019-01-09T20:56:54Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > Belief in god is a harmful one… > [@RickJay](#): > > Religion is a destructive force…Belief in God harms many. I find these statements…interesting. Since human society has nearly always been permeated by religion, from where are you drawing your comparisons to make such claims? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/35 "2019-01-09T21:00:08Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I actually think Santa is sort of a mock lesson for kids to walk them through their eventual disbelief in god. > > You’re convinced someone magical is out there. He knows everything you do. He’ll reward you if you’re good and punish you if you’re bad. Everyone around you seems to believe in him too, reinforcing that belief. > > And then you realize that something you believed so hard, something you took for granted as being true, was actually a mass delusion inflicted on you by your society. And you realize you were fooled. That’s quite a cartoonish caricature of the concept of God and belief in God. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/36 "2019-01-09T21:08:10Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I find these statements…interesting. Since human society has nearly always been permeated by religion, from where are you drawing your comparisons to make such claims? I find those statements wrongheaded but your rebuttal is inane. Human society has been permeated by lots of stuff, that doesn’t mean all that stuff is judgment proof. Do we need an alternate reality to draw a comparison so that we may condemn racism, sexism and brutal government crackdowns on dissent? Those have nearly always permeated human society to this point. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/37 "2019-01-09T21:38:46Z")
:eek: Santa Claus doesn’t exist? To quote that guy from _Avenue Q_, "Whatchoo talkin’ 'bout, Willis? Am I supposed to just accept that Michaela HASN’T been on the Naughty list for the past 23 years? Well who was SUPPOSED to be giving her presents for all those Christmases? … oops. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/38 "2019-01-09T21:47:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think this is the issue. Do you have any evidence that this is true or do you just feel that it’s true? > > Quite frankly, a lot of Christians in America seem to feel that they’re being persecuted even though there’s no basis for this belief. To be fair, there seem to be quite a few things that they believe despite there being no basis for the belief… ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/39 "2019-01-09T21:47:48Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I find those statements wrongheaded but your rebuttal is inane. Human society has been permeated by lots of stuff, that doesn’t mean all that stuff is judgment proof. Do we need an alternate reality to draw a comparison so that we may condemn racism, sexism and brutal government crackdowns on dissent? Those have nearly always permeated human society to this point. Inane? Sheesh, sorry. My response was not a rebuttal, but a question. I did not claim that religion is judgment proof. On the contrary I believe religious claims should be judged and examined very closely. I think it’s fairly easy to demonstrate how racism, sexism, and oppressive governments, in and of themselves, are bad for humans. I’m interested in how one could demonstrate that religion, in and of itself, is bad for humans. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/40 "2019-01-09T21:50:04Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > That’s quite a cartoonish caricature of the concept of God and belief in God. No. It’s accurate and truthful actually. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442.md?page=3)