# Why should Santa be regarded differently than God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442 "2019-01-09T02:20:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/41 "2019-01-09T21:53:21Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I find these statements…interesting. Since human society has nearly always been permeated by religion, from where are you drawing your comparisons to make such claims? Really? Seriously? We need to spell out the destructiveness of religion to you? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/42 "2019-01-09T22:02:20Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > None of those examples are about classroom textbooks teaching Creationism and there’s no dots on California in the article Czarcasm linked. Still, I must say, I am a little surprised by the extent of it given it would take one angry parent to call the ACLU to get it into court. Ever been a pariah in your own town? Ever receive tons of hate mail and receive physical threats directed at you and your family? How do feel about being on the national news, triggering people from all over the country(and some religious organizations) to “strike a blow against persecution”? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/43 "2019-01-09T22:03:12Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Really? Seriously? > We need to spell out the destructiveness of religion to you? Really? An atheist spelling out the “destructiveness of religion” is a lot like an anarchist spelling out the “destructiveness of government”. You can demonstrate how people have used religion as a tool of oppression, just like an anarchist can demonstrate how people have used government as a tool of oppression. But that will not prove anything regarding the de facto _value_ of religion or government. It will only prove that humans use all sorts of means of power to oppress each other. The issue is, how can you claim that religion is the problem _per se_ unless you can provide an alternative example? What is the “no religion” alternative? What is the “no government” alternative, and what do they look like? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/44 "2019-01-09T22:08:55Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > No. It’s accurate and truthful actually. Then you have been greatly cheated. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/45 "2019-01-09T22:29:46Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think you may be making a mistake I’ve seen quite a few atheists make: you’re assuming not only that God isn’t real (which of course is what makes you a nonbeliever) but that people (at least, thinking adults) who genuinely believe in God aren’t real either (which is demonstrably false). > > When you learned that Santa Claus wasn’t real, you learned that all the grown-ups who were telling you that Santa was real were playing make-believe, and that what Santa supposedly did was really done by your parents pretending to be Santa. The people who were “deluding” you were not themselves deluded: they knew the truth and expected you to know it too, later if not currently. > > But that’s not what belief in God is, so you couldn’t have been “seeing it for what it is.” That’s why “you’re actually given much more evidence that Santa exists than God does”: when you actually believe something is real, you don’t have to manufacture fraudulent evidence for it. Or provide authentic evidence, apparently. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Yes, there are some Christian parents who do worry that the Santa Claus myth will undermine belief in God. And yes, there are some nominal Christians who don’t actually believe in God. But there are also plenty of sincere Christians who don’t worry about Santa because, well, apples and oranges. They no more think “If my kid finds out Santa isn’t real, they’ll think God sin’t real” than they think “If my kid finds out Harry Potter isn’t real, they’ll think Harry Truman isn’t real,” or “If my kid finds out Luke Skywalker didn’t really land on Dagobah, they’ll think Neil Armstrong didn’t really land on the moon.” Actually, Luke kinda more _crashed_ than landed. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/46 "2019-01-09T22:37:55Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > An atheist spelling out the “destructiveness of religion” is a lot like an anarchist spelling out the “destructiveness of government”. > > You can demonstrate how people have used religion as a tool of oppression, just like an anarchist can demonstrate how people have used government as a tool of oppression. But that will not prove anything regarding the de facto _value_ of religion or government. It will only prove that humans use all sorts of means of power to oppress each other. > > The issue is, how can you claim that religion is the problem _per se_ unless you can provide an alternative example? What is the “no religion” alternative? What is the “no government” alternative, and what do they look like? If I’m parsing you right, your position is ‘no places (large enough that I count them) exist without religion (only counting complete universal atheism here, not European disinterest) and thus, lacking a functioning perfect alternative to compare against, religion cannot be criticized’. Is that close? If not, please explain what is barring us from evaluating the influence and effects of religion. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/47 "2019-01-09T22:44:36Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If I’m parsing you right, your position is ‘no places (large enough that I count them) exist without religion (only counting complete universal atheism here, not European disinterest) and thus, lacking a functioning perfect alternative to compare against, religion cannot be criticized’. No, religion can be criticized. But unqualified assertions/wholesale condemnations of religion like those I quoted in Post #34 are absurd. I am waiting for someone to show me otherwise. > [@begbert2](#): > > …please explain what is barring us from evaluating the influence and effects of religion. Nothing. I am all for evaluating the influences and effects of specific religions, though I don’t know if it’s possible to evaluate “religion” in and of itself, because what are you evaluating it against? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/48 "2019-01-09T22:44:38Z")
The similarity to religion is simple: we don’t all agree on whether or not we should teach either a particular religion or the Santa myth to children. Since neither fact-based, there is no principle of teaching facts that is involved. As such, it is considered outside the domain of teachers to teach. The difference is why we don’t think it is the teacher’s purview. With religion, people think being taught the wrong one at an impressionable time is dangerous. (This includes atheists, BTW. The wrong one just happens to be any of the God-based ones.) With the Santa myth, it’s the opposite: it’s considered a bit of harmless fun, and we don’t want others to ruin it for those who wish to teach it to their kids. The main reason it causes ire is that people remember how much fun they had as kids believing in Santa. People enjoy the idea of a childhood where you can believe things that you have to stop believing as an adult. They find this experience to have been pleasant or even beneficial to them, so they want to preserve it. Societies have taboos. Consider how upset parents would be if the teacher swore in front of them. We have a custom that such words are not to be used in front of children. And we have a custom that you don’t spoil Santa Claus. Parents, of course, are free to agree with their own kids. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/49 "2019-01-09T23:02:28Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > No, religion can be criticized. But unqualified assertions/wholesale condemnations of religion like those I quoted in Post #34 are absurd. I am waiting for someone to show me otherwise. I read assertions such as those as brief summaries of positions, not the whole sum argument for the positions. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Nothing. I am all for evaluating the influences and effects of specific religions, though I don’t know if it’s possible to evaluate “religion” in and of itself, because what are you evaluating it against? I compare it against all the instances where religion isn’t having an effect. As I don’t live in a cult compound such situations aren’t hard to come by. In fact it’s possible to compare people with different levels of religious belief and observance and observe different levels of effect - there are some things where a mild amount of religion seems to function as a good thing but cult-level amounts do not, such as its role as an opportunity to meet people and build societal relations. Oh, and in my area “religion” means Christianity, all flavors. This may vary for others. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/50 "2019-01-09T23:29:29Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I actually think Santa is sort of a mock lesson for kids to walk them through their eventual disbelief in god. > > You’re convinced someone magical is out there. He knows everything you do. He’ll reward you if you’re good and punish you if you’re bad. Everyone around you seems to believe in him too, reinforcing that belief. > > And then you realize that something you believed so hard, something you took for granted as being true, was actually a mass delusion inflicted on you by your society. And you realize you were fooled. > > That’s very similar to the steps you take as a kid on your way to rejecting a belief in god after seeing it for what it is. > > Funny enough, you’re actually given much more evidence that Santa exists than God does. Someone gives you those presents every year. It’s fraudulent evidence, but it makes more sense to believe it to be real than something with no evidence at all. > > I’m a little surprised no one else seems to realize this, and that religious parents don’t discourage a belief in Santa from the start to prevent this pathway from forming in their child’s mind. I guess we see that even with this lesson, most kids turn out religious anyway, but certainly among at least some of the unbelieving, this lesson formed part of the cognitive toolset they used to get to where they are. Its possible, but religion is negatively correlated with wealth, education and intelligence. The kinds of people who live in societies where people are wealthy and stable enough to celebrate christmas are probably more prone to secularism to begin with. I think one reason santa isn’t believed is we know santa isn’t real. If your parents don’t put presents under the tree, then the presents don’t go there. But you can’t prove or disprove god anymore than you can prove or disprove there are giant squids living in the 6th dimension. Theres no way to prove or disprove a deity. ---
**Author:** ![MrKnowItAll](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrknowitall/32/87_2.png) [@MrKnowItAll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrKnowItAll)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/51 "2019-01-09T23:33:43Z")
Simple. No creation myth. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/52 "2019-01-09T23:43:35Z")
Why would there be a need to disprove something that doesn’t exist? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/53 "2019-01-09T23:58:44Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Its possible, but religion is negatively correlated with wealth, education and intelligence. > > The kinds of people who live in societies where people are wealthy and stable enough to celebrate christmas are probably more prone to secularism to begin with. It don’t take a lot of folding green to celebrate christmas. It just takes it to celebrate _well_. Where “well” is defined as “secularly”. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I think one reason santa isn’t believed is we know santa isn’t real. If your parents don’t put presents under the tree, then the presents don’t go there. But you can’t prove or disprove god anymore than you can prove or disprove there are giant squids living in the 6th dimension. Theres no way to prove or disprove a deity. Christian deities are easy to disprove, because the dude has “never lies” built into his definition. There are so many easily disprovable claims made by christianity that I’ve never met a branch of it that didn’t fold like wet paper under all the disproofs. It’s true that you can’t disprove all theoretical gods if that includes not defining what a god is - for example I’m a god, and so is my desk fan, and I defy you to prove that either of us don’t exist. But the big famous gods that all the fuss is made about, with all the creation myths and spectacular claims? Easy targets. Easier than Santa Claus, actually, because one can always claim that Santa is doing his magic somewhere else where you haven’t looked, whereas gods tend to have a lot of fiction on record in established and examinable places. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/54 "2019-01-10T00:23:18Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > That’s quite a cartoonish caricature of the concept of God and belief in God. How so? You’ll have to actually make a case for me to respond to this. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/55 "2019-01-10T01:53:41Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I read assertions such as those as brief summaries of positions, not the whole sum argument for the positions. > > I compare it against all the instances where religion isn’t having an effect. As I don’t live in a cult compound such situations aren’t hard to come by. In fact it’s possible to compare people with different levels of religious belief and observance and observe different levels of effect - there are some things where a mild amount of religion seems to function as a good thing but cult-level amounts do not, such as its role as an opportunity to meet people and build societal relations. > > Oh, and in my area “religion” means Christianity, all flavors. This may vary for others. I don’t disagree with you necessarily, but I guess it depends what you mean by “cult - level”. If we’re specifically talking about Christianity; a religion with a definite beginning and historically traceable growth and development, then the question: “Has Christianity made the world better or worse” is a topic that can and should be debated. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/56 "2019-01-10T02:04:01Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > How so? You’ll have to actually make a case for me to respond to this. You said: “You’re convinced someone magical is out there. He knows everything you do. He’ll reward you if you’re good and punish you if you’re bad.” I’ve never heard a Christian philosopher describe God as “magical”. God knowing everything that humans do is only a necessary condition of God-ness. Since God must by definition be the ultimate source and sustenance of reality, if a being could be unaware of an event in that reality, than it could not be God. Similarly, God must by definition be the ultimate source and standard of justice and righteousness. If a being failed to reward good and punish evil, then it would not be just and therefore not God. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/57 "2019-01-10T03:54:46Z")
The OP begins from several dubious premises: > [@Velocity](#): > > There was considerable outrage on Facebook over the incident as well - I would guesstimate that about 75% of the several thousand commenters were opposed to the teacher and that relatively few took her side. I can’t help but think, though, that a significant number of these posters wouldn’t have a problem with someone proclaiming “God does not exist”. If a teacher were to tell his/her infant students that “God does not exist”, there absolutely would be considerable outrage and likely a firing. So even if it made sense to put these two entities in the same bracket, this would be demanding consistency, the \*opposite \*of hypocrisy. > [@](#): > > It’s even more incongruous given that the existence of God is debatable whereas Santa obviously does not exist, yet people were getting upset over the latter being declared as fake but not the former. Firstly from a empirical point of view, they both potentially exist; it is just that no good evidence has been presented. And it makes sense to assume non-existence until such evidence materializes. And that, in an ideal world, would be the end of the debate. But in terms of proveability, at least Santa just requires new physics to exist. There are gods which are self-contradictory and we are safer assuming don’t exist than Santa. > [@](#): > > AIUI, the major (and perhaps only) difference is because of “the innocence of **children**.” People were largely upset over the teacher telling students that Santa was fake, but wouldn’t be upset about adults telling **adults** that God doesn’t exist, because children need holiday innocence preserved but adults do not need religious innocence preserved - something to that effect. [bolding added] Yes there is a big difference between what an adult can say to another adult, and what a teacher can say to his/her child pupils. I am surprised that you are surprised by this. There is considerable scope for creating threads of the type “How come I can say \ to an adult, but there’s outrage when I say it to a group of children that are in my care?” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/58 "2019-01-10T07:57:43Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I’ve never heard a Christian philosopher describe God as “magical”. God knowing everything that humans do is only a necessary condition of God-ness. Since God must by definition be the ultimate source and sustenance of reality, if a being could be unaware of an event in that reality, than it could not be God. I’m sure they don’t, since that would make the scam too obvious. But Christians 500 years ago believed in magic - otherwise they would not have believed in witches. Is a witch walking on water magical but Jesus walking on water not magical? If God does miracles, he does magic. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/59 "2019-01-10T08:01:04Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I think one reason santa isn’t believed is we know santa isn’t real. If your parents don’t put presents under the tree, then the presents don’t go there. But you can’t prove or disprove god anymore than you can prove or disprove there are giant squids living in the 6th dimension. Theres no way to prove or disprove a deity. If we were socially committed to Santa, we could say that no presents is for the best, or that the kid was bad and therefore no presents, or the kid didn’t pray/wish hard enough. Or that Santa works in mysterious ways. They all work for God, after all. You can disprove specific deities, like a tri-omni God, and God could probably prove himself beyond reasonable doubt if he cared to do so. You can’t disprove all gods since that is not a well defined set. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442/60 "2019-01-10T13:43:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Here is a map from a couple of years ago](https://io9.gizmodo.com/a-map-showing-which-u-s-public-schools-teach-creationi-1515717148) showing where Creationism is taught in public and private schools. Fascinating map. Tennessee and Louisiana make it look like an [Ishihara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishihara_test) plate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-santa-be-regarded-differently-than-god/827442.md?page=4)