Why should we care if playing in the NFL has long time health problems?

[Guinastasia]

@canned_mayhem

Funny how the media and the internet is full of concerned individuals who’ve never played a single down that think the athletes are victims somehow while the athletes themselves love the game and wish they dialed the crybaby rules back.

Really? Are you sure about that? Do you think these guys are “crybabies”?

:dubious:

Maybe they need the nerfed rules now. I remember watching Ronnie Lott choose to get his finger amputated instead of leaving the game early. Now players spend weeks on injured reserve for getting grass in their helmet.

However, I don’t see anyone on the IR for getting a little grass in their helmet or whatever. Look at hockey players! Where you have guys like Patrice Bergeron, Steven Stamkos, and Pascal Dupuis (although in Dupuis’s case, I wouldn’t exactly reccomend this, to put it mildly). And don’t forget these guys.

On the other hand, do we really want a repeat of Wade Belek, Derek Boogard, or Rick Rypien? What about Marc Savard? How about Junior Seau and Dave Duerson? There is a line that has to be drawn somewhere, dude. It’s not an either or issue.

[usedtobe]

In the mid 80’s, my brother, the High School teacher in a tiny Mid-Western town, asked about other sports the school could start, as their insurance premiums for football were getting out of control.

I called it: Soccer. They already had a soccer team, but it didn’t draw the same attention as football.

I suggested promoting it - switch the ‘Homecoming’ from football to soccer, make it a Varsity sport, whatever.

That was 30 years ago.

While it will be impossible for a HS student to develop dementia while still in HS, the insurance for the school will not be affected.

Until that first suit alleging that the School District was the primary/sole reason the Plaintiff chose a career in football.

It will be 30 years AFTER the science has proven, to even the NFL and Budweiser, that the 176th helmet impact of X force causes irreversible dementia, that the critical suit will be won.

Until then, there will be enough of the ‘OK, I get hurt, but I make a ton of money’ folks to keep the game going.

Placerville CA is the site of some old-time gold mining operations.

It is now a tourist trap for those who want a selfie.

Point: there is an ancient ore-crushing shop - three ten-gallon buckets packed with small stones (concrete was not available) were pistons on a crankshaft.
They have restore it as a static display. There is a tiny, motorized model. The model (thumb-sized pistons) generates about 100-120 decibels.

The machine, when operating, caused complete deafness after 3 days. It paid $5/day.
There was a waiting list of men eager to trade their hearing for $5/day.

You want to sacrifice your knees and/or shoulders for a college education (and, possibly, several million dollars)? A whole bunch of people will rationally take that offer.

Bruce Springsteen’s sax player (RIP Big Man) had a try-out with the Cowboys when a car crash took out a knee prematurely. Clarence was not a stupid man, and he was willing to make that deal.

[hajario]

@canned_mayhem

But now that the cat’s out of the bag and everyone can pretty much agree that throwing yourself head first into other people may have a negative affect on your health one day we should see a mass exodus from football right?

I’m not gonna hold my breath on that one.

Almost every interview I watch concerning old players and new players where they are asked how the game has changed they always seem to complain how the game has gotten softer. Funny how the media and the internet is full of concerned individuals who’ve never played a single down that think the athletes are victims somehow while the athletes themselves love the game and wish they dialed the crybaby rules back.

Maybe they need the nerfed rules now. I remember watching Ronnie Lott choose to get his finger amputated instead of leaving the game early. Now players spend weeks on injured reserve for getting grass in their helmet.

In 1905, football had a problem. It was a hugely popular sport but the injuries were getting out of control. Even worse than injuries, nearly 50 people died on the field between 1900 and 1905. People wanted to ban the game and that almost happened until the President Roosevelt stepped in created a committee to change the rules to make the game safer. For example, helmets were required. Now I am sure that there were those who decried the namby pamby new rules but lives were saved and the game went on to be one of the most popular forms of entertainment in the country.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/05/29/teddy-roosevelt-helped-save-football-with-a-white-house-meeting-in-1905/

[NinthAcolyte]

A couple folks have suggested that better equipment or more comprehensive safety rules could reduce injuries. I’d like to point out the words of The Master on the subject.

[Robert163]

@Odesio

Well, yes, I thought I made it very clear in my post that we were all aware of concussions. What we weren’t aware of is that brain damage could result from non-concussive injuries or activities. I don’t believe the coaches I had in middle or high school were aware of these risks either. That you could go through your entire football career without sustaining a single concussion and still end up with brain damage was something we weren’t aware of.

oh… yeah that does sound kind of hard to understand

[usedtobe]

Maybe it will take the equivalent of a Dale Earnhart to get the NFL to address repetitive head trauma.
(Earnhart’s death is credited with the introduction of the HANS safety system).

Have a 5-time Superbowl defensive linebacker show up at a Congressional hearing and be unable to construct a coherent response to a simple question from the Committee Chairperson.

Like Michael J. Fox did for Parkinson’s.

Mr. Fox could take a pill to lessen his symptoms.
It’s somewhat different for the linebacker.

[Cheesesteak]

@canned_mayhem

But now that the cat’s out of the bag and everyone can pretty much agree that throwing yourself head first into other people may have a negative affect on your health one day we should see a mass exodus from football right?

I’m not gonna hold my breath on that one.

How long did it take for smoking to fall out of favor? It took decades to convince people that paying their own money to suck cancer-causing smoke into their lungs was a hilariously bad idea, and there are STILL something like 40 million smokers in this country.

Long term risk is not the sort of thing that people react very sensibly to. It takes a long time, but it will get there.

[Desert_Nomad]

@Napier

Guy checking in here. In fact, a middle-aged white straight cis American guy. Football and other aggressive sports appear to be made for the entertainment of my demographic.

I hate this supposed primal need I’m supposed to have for seeing people damage each other. To me it looks like a bill of goods I’m being sold, and there’s a dangerous amount of money helping motivate it. Plus, I’m supposed to get drunk while consuming this, so I’m supposed to have even less perceptiveness and good judgement than normal.

I’m not sure whether there are innate gender differences motivating men to consume violent entertainment, but there are certainly socializing influences trying to do it, and people trying to get rich off of it too. I disapprove.

Yup. Exactly. I see football as rather pointless and don’t really understand why it is so popular. I do watch baseball and having thought about it a lot, I think one of the aspects of baseball that is unique (and makes it a good sport) is that it is not controlled by a clock. It is highly unlikely to result in brain damage too.

[bump]

@Robert163

Good point. I agree, well I sort of agree the sport was misrepresented, but part of me also says “come on!!! really??? you didn’t think doing that would have long term consequences???!!!???”

(not trying to be rude, just descriptive)

I agree with you 100% that it takes advantage of poor people with few other options, that is an important part of the conversation as well.

I think you’re misunderstanding the root of the CTE problem. (the brain damage seen in retired players)

The thing is, it’s not necessarily concussions and big bell-ringing hits that are the issue. Those are relatively infrequent.

What causes the issue is the repetitive nature of the contact- a lineman will bang helmets with the guy across from him on EVERY play during a game, and a lot of them during practice as well, but probably never ever have a spectacular highlight-film collision. It’s been discovered that this sort of sub-concussive impact causes very small scale damage that accumulates over time, and causes many of the symptoms of CTE.

The NFL in particular is basically shutting their eyes tight, sticking their pinkies in their ears, and saying “LA LA LA LA LA” about the CTE issue.

From the perspective of most players, it’s essentially the fact that not only is the protective equipment inadequate to prevent this kind of injury, but that they’ve actually been coached to do exactly what causes it, and the league is essentially saying that it doesn’t exist, isn’t serious, or any number of other dubious dodges. Think of the oil company double-speak and obfuscation about climate change, and you have an idea of the NFL’s position on CTE and brain injury.

Essentially the players were sold a bill of goods by the system, and the NFL is claiming that they’re not responsible. And they’re not totally culpable; since CTE is a disease where the damage accumulates, every level of football has some culpability, but it’ll probably eventually be shown that the risk really amps up once someone makes it to the NFL. I haven’t heard of ex-college players being diagnosed with CTE yet, but there are scads of ex-NFL players who were so diagnosed.

In terms of a coal mine comparison, it would be similar to a situation where the miners were taught to mine in a particular fashion likely to give them black lung, with safety equipment that wasn’t adequate to prevent it, and then the mining companies claiming that it’s not their fault that these guys are dying of black lung 15 years after they quit mining.

[Human_Action]

@canned_mayhem

But now that the cat’s out of the bag and everyone can pretty much agree that throwing yourself head first into other people may have a negative affect on your health one day we should see a mass exodus from football right?

I’m not gonna hold my breath on that one.

It’s already starting, at the NFL level:

Four NFL players aged 30 or under have retired in surprising fashion since the 2015 league year began in early March.

All of them did so voluntarily, giving up millions of dollars in the process.

The latest player to retire, 24-year-old San Francisco 49ers linebacker Chris Borland, quit because he worried about his long-term brain health.

It won’t happen overnight, but it will happen: more and more pros will retire after banking enough to live on, fewer and fewer kids will play youth football, and pro football will cease to exist as a major sport.

[wolfpup]

@Desert_Nomad

Yup. Exactly. I see football as rather pointless and don’t really understand why it is so popular. I do watch baseball and having thought about it a lot, I think one of the aspects of baseball that is unique (and makes it a good sport) is that it is not controlled by a clock. It is highly unlikely to result in brain damage too.

Baseball is a completely different kind of sport and I don’t think making any kind of comparison is apt. But hockey is – it’s a fast-action sport with a lot of physical contact, and even condones fighting – fighting is penalized, but only with routine time penalties, and fans pretty much expect the rough stuff.

Yet hockey isn’t plagued with brain injuries, although concussions do sometimes occur, but not often. Other kinds of physical injuries are more common, but are rarely serious or permanent.

I think part of the answer may be in the cumulative damage occurring in football that bump describes in #69. In hockey the closest equivalent is the body check, which never involves the head and which would be a serious offense if it did, probably resulting in suspension.

Furthermore, I think some of the hockey rules around checks and fighting are stupid, and the violent aspects, even as relatively benign as they are, could be mitigated without affecting the quality of the game. Whereas in football the violence is both more extreme and more intrinsic to the game. To understand why nothing is being done about it one need only look at the money and the profits involved.

[bump]

@Human_Action

It’s already starting, at the NFL level:

It won’t happen overnight, but it will happen: more and more pros will retire after banking enough to live on, fewer and fewer kids will play youth football, and pro football will cease to exist as a major sport.

Nah, I bet there will be a series of rule changes and probably equipment changes intended to effectively eliminate head-to-head contact, and the game will continue, in a form that’s much different than what we see today.

Personally I agree with whatever ex-player or coach suggested removing the face mask. Without that grill to protect one’s face, nobody in their right mind is going to smack into another guy and lead with his head, which is a big part of the current problem- linemen are taught to break the other guy’s charge using their head, and defensive players are taught to more or less lead with their heads.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@hajario

So say the lawyers.

The tobacco companies conducted their own research and withheld it when the results were bad for them. It looks like the NFL, at worst, reviewed data that was out there for anyone to see and came up with a bad conclusion. Would anyone else have come up with the same conclusion based on the existing research in 1994?

Since the NFL was actively suppressing other research, it’s hard to say. They acted very much like current Republican legislators re climate change.

@even_sven

By god that article is terrifying. They found evidence of permanent brain damage in 79% of ALL football players, including in people playing at the high school level.

In fairness, it was 79% of dead players. So they’re not exactly a representative sample.

@canned_mayhem

But now that the cat’s out of the bag and everyone can pretty much agree that throwing yourself head first into other people may have a negative affect on your health one day we should see a mass exodus from football right?

Hardly. Many of these players have been brainwashed into believing that playing through head injuries makes you a man. Professional players obviously are going to have a hard time walking away from a sport that is all they are qualified for; would you risk brain injury for $5 million a year if your next best option was being a day laborer?

Almost every interview I watch concerning old players and new players where they are asked how the game has changed they always seem to complain how the game has gotten softer. Funny how the media and the internet is full of concerned individuals who’ve never played a single down that think the athletes are victims somehow while the athletes themselves love the game and wish they dialed the crybaby rules back.

Maybe they need the nerfed rules now. I remember watching Ronnie Lott choose to get his finger amputated instead of leaving the game early. Now players spend weeks on injured reserve for getting grass in their helmet.

I am a huge football fan, but let’s bear something in mind: football players are stupid (even before they get hit in the head a lot). Peyton Manning may be the face of the league, but he’s hardly representative.

If the game has gotten softer, it’s because the players have gotten harder. Cam Newton is taller and heavier than just about every starting lineman who played in the 1960s. The weight of the average NFL tackle has gone from 240 pounds to 325 - but the average 40 time has decreased. Dick Butkus ran a 5-second 40. Nowadays even the slowest linebackers in the league run faster than that.

Today’s NFL players hit much harder than any of the “tough guys” who complain about them. It’s important to bear in mind, too, that 90% of the rule changes complained about have no impact on the majority of players; they only affect quarterbacks.

[wolfpup]

On the big-money angle, just came across this – estimated market value of the Dallas Cowboys: $4 billion. That’s “billion” with a B. For one stupid sports team, albeit one of the more valuable. There are 32 teams in the NFL. I don’t imagine they’re going to be very anxious to make major changes until they have no choice.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Hardly. Many of these players have been brainwashed into believing that playing through head injuries makes you a man. Professional players obviously are going to have a hard time walking away from a sport that is all they are qualified for; would you risk brain injury for $5 million a year if your next best option was being a day laborer?

I meant to expand on this, but forgot. I was also going to say is that what you’ll see is a reduction in the number of kids playing youth football, and smaller reductions in the numbers playing scholastic and collegiate football. Gradually the large reduction will work its way up the tree as age groups move up.

Even the drop in youth participation won’t happen overnight; nearly half of parents are concerned about the dangers of head injuries but only a tiny minority are telling their kids to stop playing. Whether this represents short-sightedness or bad parenting is a question I leave to the reader.

I do expect all of the numbers to spike considerably with the most recent CTE autopsy findings, which have been widely reported.

[Broomstick]

@bump

I haven’t heard of ex-college players being diagnosed with CTE yet, but there are scads of ex-NFL players who were so diagnosed.

College-level players are something that are starting to be examined. Diagnosis of CTE can’t be definitive until after death and an autopsy, but my landlord, who played Big 10 football (it paid for his education) knows quite a few former fellow Big 10 players who are showing signs of early mental deterioration - including himself. They’re just not getting the publicity because they aren’t famous professional athletes.

He’s told me on several occasions he’s kind of relieved his son had no real interest in playing the game.

[hajario]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Since the NFL was actively suppressing other research, it’s hard to say. They acted very much like current Republican legislators re climate change.

Yes. That is a better comparison than Big Tobacco.

[bump]

@Broomstick

College-level players are something that are starting to be examined. Diagnosis of CTE can’t be definitive until after death and an autopsy, but my landlord, who played Big 10 football (it paid for his education) knows quite a few former fellow Big 10 players who are showing signs of early mental deterioration - including himself. They’re just not getting the publicity because they aren’t famous professional athletes.

He’s told me on several occasions he’s kind of relieved his son had no real interest in playing the game.

I wasn’t aware of that.

I suspect that at some point, there’ll be a large enough body of analysis to give pretty good odds of what sort of problems a player might have, and I suspect that the critical point will be sometime after high school. That’s not to say that guys like myself who played high school football didn’t suffer any brain damage, but that the cumulative effect might be small enough to be within the brain’s capacity to repair/work around, and that there’s some threshold above which that no longer happens and cognitive deterioration starts to become noticeable. Also, player sizes and speeds get progressively higher as the level of the game and the number of years playing increases, so that it’s possible that the level of damage accelerates as time goes on. In other words, two 180 lb high school freshman linemen butting heads isn’t nearly so violent as two 220 lb seniors, and the same applies for 2 330 lb NFL linemen.

[kenobi_65]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

It’s not the big hits they weren’t away of. It’s the cumulative effect of all the little hits to the head and body (that cause your head to snap back) that lead to dementia and other problems that wasn’t well understood.

Take the example of Chris Henry, a wide receiver with the Bengals who died in a traffic accident (specifically, falling out of the back of a moving truck during a domestic dispute with his fiancee) in 2009, at age 26. Henry had a history of behavioral issues, and an autopsy discovered he was already suffering from CTE, at age 26, despite having never been diagnosed with a concussion during his football career.

Also, even in the case of concussions: the issue isn’t that players didn’t know that concussions were a possibility, it’s that it’s only in the past few years that it’s been discovered just how damaging concussions (and sub-concussion-level head trauma) can be to the brain, on a long-term basis.

[slash2k]

@usedtobe

You want to sacrifice your knees and/or shoulders for a college education (and, possibly, several million dollars)? A whole bunch of people will rationally take that offer.

You’re not sacrificing your knees and/or shoulders, though; you are potentially sacrificing your brain.

Also, given college graduation rates for division I football players (about 55% at the major programs, and considerably lower for black athletes, even counting athletes deliberately steered into easier programs), it’s debatable whether they are actually getting a college education.

For a division I football player, the most likely result of their sacrifice is no useful degree, no pro contract, and a lifetime of health problems. Are the people making this choice really making a rational choice, or are college recruiters preying on teenagers with big dreams and too little information?