# Why should we respect religious beliefs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2007, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733 "2007-03-13T12:19:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/21 "2007-03-13T16:09:41Z")
[QUOTE=BMalion] So they should only voice disrespect of my religious beliefs if I made it known that I voted on an issue based on those beliefs? šŸ˜• [/QUOTE] Live and let live. As long as you arenā€™t fucking with my shit via the political process, then I donā€™t give a damn what crazy stuff you believe. Just keep it out of the ballot box. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/22 "2007-03-13T16:12:22Z")
[QUOTE=BMalion] So they should only voice disrespect of my religious beliefs if I made it known that I voted on an issue based on those beliefs? šŸ˜• [/QUOTE] Thatā€™s kind of a broad reading of ā€œpolitical weapons.ā€ ---
**Author:** ![Cryptoderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cryptoderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptoderk)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/23 "2007-03-13T16:32:37Z")
Thinking futher, we get plenty of BBQ Bit threads along the lines of ā€œOā€™Reilly said xyz, therefore heā€™s a twatā€. Surely in this case we are disrespecting him based upon his beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/24 "2007-03-13T16:35:34Z")
Taken to a certain extreme, the light of pure reason can be applied to many activities: Do you like any sports, TV shows, movies? Why? You do understand that thereā€™s no real benefit to society if team ā€œXā€ wins a game, or a season championship. All of the energy directed towards team sports is, at its heart, irrational. Similarly, TV shows and movies are simply fictional depictions of human activity. There is no logical value to watching them. Etc, etc. Nonetheless, we as a society seem to treat sports fans and moviegoers ā€“ not to mention sports figures and movie stars ā€“ with respect and even admiration. This practice should stop immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/25 "2007-03-13T16:43:47Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] I dunno, it is just a guess here, not knowing you at all, but do you believe that you love anyone? That ā€œlove for othersā€ (lover, child, pet, humanity, etc.) is something special and good (and more than merely stimulus-response) appears to me to be a very commonly held belief without any ā€œsolid evidentiary basisā€, and one based purely on ā€œemotional appealā€ [/QUOTE] But there is solid evidentiary basis. If the suggestion is that love is a set of emotions I feel for someone, or the extent to which iā€™m willing to help someone - these things I can know. Love is something that I may experience; like with religion, it is possible that iā€™m wrong, but I am certainly correct within my own definition of love. Look at it this way; I may feel that God exists. I may feel that I love my partner. I could be wrong about God - my feeling that he exists could be wrong. But when it comes to love, \*that very feeling itself \* is love. I donā€™t need \*objective \* evidence because love isnā€™t about objectivity, itā€™s about what I feel. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/26 "2007-03-13T16:46:39Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Taken to a certain extreme, the light of pure reason can be applied to many activities: Do you like any sports, TV shows, movies? Why? You do understand that thereā€™s no real benefit to society if team ā€œXā€ wins a game, or a season championship. All of the energy directed towards team sports is, at its heart, irrational. Similarly, TV shows and movies are simply fictional depictions of human activity. There is no logical value to watching them. [/QUOTE] I disagree. Thereā€™s logical value to watching them; I enjoy TV shows and movies. Now, you could argue that the reasons behind my enjoying them are irrational - empathy for nonexistant persons, and such - nevertheless, I do enjoy them. So for me at least, itā€™s not an irrational situation. Iā€™m putting in effort by supporting a team or watching a film, and in return I enjoy myself. Perfectly rational. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/27 "2007-03-13T16:50:53Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Thatā€™s kind of a broad reading of ā€œpolitical weapons.ā€ [/QUOTE] Thatā€™s why I was asking, could you define it better for me? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/28 "2007-03-13T16:51:18Z")
I agree with the points made about respecting people - until people, by their actions, give a reason not to respect them. Religious beliefs are fine as long as they stay beliefs. In some cases, people will do things based on their beliefs that hurt others - for instance a move to ban or limit contraception. They may argue, rightly, that this is logical based on their beliefs. Thatā€™s the point where you need to attack the beliefs. Is that disrespectful? It might be. Iā€™m not sure how respectful an attack can be, especially when you get down to core beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/29 "2007-03-13T16:55:38Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Taken to a certain extreme, the light of pure reason can be applied to many activities: Do you like any sports, TV shows, movies? Why? You do understand that thereā€™s no real benefit to society if team ā€œXā€ wins a game, or a season championship. All of the energy directed towards team sports is, at its heart, irrational. Similarly, TV shows and movies are simply fictional depictions of human activity. There is no logical value to watching them. [/QUOTE] Iā€™m not sure thatā€™s a relevant example. Personal enjoyment of this stuff probably has a genetic basis. You can have fun arguing about teams. But if a legislature or governor required attendance at a game because they were fans of a team, or banned rooting for another team in their territory, you might start attacking their belief in the team (Iā€™m assuming theyā€™re in some place without constitutional safeguards.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/30 "2007-03-13T16:58:24Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Look at it this way; I may feel that God exists. I may feel that I love my partner. I could be wrong about God - my feeling that he exists could be wrong. But when it comes to love, \*that very feeling itself \* is love. I donā€™t need \*objective \* evidence because love isnā€™t about objectivity, itā€™s about what I feel. [/QUOTE] All true - but if you started to clobber someone who said their love was as nice as yours, (even verbally) I think we can point out the irrationality, even if disrespectful. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/31 "2007-03-13T16:59:41Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] But there is solid evidentiary basis. If the suggestion is that love is a set of emotions I feel for someone, or the extent to which iā€™m willing to help someone - these things I can know. Love is something that I may experience; like with religion, it is possible that iā€™m wrong, but I am certainly correct within my own definition of love. Look at it this way; I may feel that God exists. I may feel that I love my partner. I could be wrong about God - my feeling that he exists could be wrong. But when it comes to love, \*that very feeling itself \* is love. I donā€™t need \*objective \* evidence because love isnā€™t about objectivity, itā€™s about what I feel. [/QUOTE] Exactly. Same goes for religion. šŸ™‚ If someone says ā€œJesus is loveā€ (or whatever, just picking that as an example), is is foolish as well as insulting to insist that they are _irrational_ and _wrong_, as suggested by the OP - because such an assertion is about what they _experience_, just like ā€œloveā€ itself. Thus, ā€œloveā€ is a perfect example of something that acts as an exact analogy to the way _some_ experience religion, but which may also be experienced by the most convinced athiest. Of course, subjective emotions can get out of control and be harmful rather than good - religion may lead to bloody-minded hatred for others rather than ā€œloveā€; and love itself may become creepy stalker-ism when the person holding that emotion rejects evidence that the object of love is not reciprocating. A person needs both emotion and intellect. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/32 "2007-03-13T17:00:33Z")
[QUOTE=BMalion] So they should only voice disrespect of my religious beliefs if I made it known that I voted on an issue based on those beliefs? šŸ˜• [/QUOTE] If you think itā€™s OK for them to voice disrespect for your beliefs in other circumstances, fine. But if your beliefs form the basis for your publicly stated position on a policy issue, donā€™t go crying ā€œintoleranceā€ if someone criticizes or satirizes those beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/33 "2007-03-13T17:01:45Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] I donā€™t need \*objective \* evidence because love isnā€™t about objectivity, itā€™s about what I feel. [/QUOTE] And whoā€™s to say that religion isnā€™t only about belief, which is just a feeling too? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/34 "2007-03-13T17:02:12Z")
[QUOTE=BMalion] Thatā€™s why I was asking, could you define it better for me? [/QUOTE] When you publicly voice an opinion on an issue, you are trying to influence the political equation. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/35 "2007-03-13T17:06:28Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Those are very good and strong words with which I strongly agree. However, the question comes down to where you draw the line. I draw the line at the KKK & Neo-Nazis as an example. Others draw the line at insults to their beliefs. Would you fight for any speech at all? Do you have a line where you would say, too far? Jim [/QUOTE] Well actually I missed out a few qualifying statements - if I thought someone a complete f/cking moron then I would feel free to kick them from here to where ever. I would be rather interested in hearing the views of a KKK or Neo-Nazi - if they were well articulated then I would be impressed. If someone shouts ā€˜FIREā€™ in a crowded theatre, then who is to blame for the chaos The jerk that shouts it, or the encephelates that panic ? I would draw a line, but it would be flexible. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/36 "2007-03-13T17:07:51Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] I agree with the points made about respecting people - until people, by their actions, give a reason not to respect them. Religious beliefs are fine as long as they stay beliefs. In some cases, people will do things based on their beliefs that hurt others - for instance a move to ban or limit contraception. They may argue, rightly, that this is logical based on their beliefs. Thatā€™s the point where you need to attack the beliefs. Is that disrespectful? It might be. Iā€™m not sure how respectful an attack can be, especially when you get down to core beliefs. [/QUOTE] I would put it this way: a religious person who feels that (for example) not providing sufficient charity and health care to those less well off is against concience and morality is faced with exactly the same dilemma when faced with a rational, reason-based argument that charity is harmful to the incentives required to provide initiative, and that having an underclass living in perpetual squalour, illness and poverty is necessary for a vibrant economy. Those arguments may well be deeply felt and based on sound logic, economic and social facts. A religious person may say ā€œthat is true, but it is offensive to have such misery when the wealth exists to alleviate it - a vibrant economy is not worth such a costā€. Is that sense of offence and outrage disrespectful, in that it attacks core beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/37 "2007-03-13T17:10:58Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] Exactly. Same goes for religion. šŸ™‚ If someone says ā€œJesus is loveā€ (or whatever, just picking that as an example), is is foolish as well as insulting to insist that they are _irrational_ and _wrong_, as suggested by the OP - because such an assertion is about what they _experience_, just like ā€œloveā€ itself. Thus, ā€œloveā€ is a perfect example of something that acts as an exact analogy to the way _some_ experience religion, but which may also be experienced by the most convinced athiest. [/quote] I agree that someone saying ā€œI feel that Jesus loves meā€ is not irrational. The only evidence required is that someone feels it, and that can happen regardless of whether Jesus exists or not. However; I would suggest that believing Jesus exists is irrational. That requires evidence beyond feelings, objective evidence, and we donā€™t have that (IMHO, we actually have evidence to suggest otherwise). So sure - feel free to say that feeling love for a partner is as rational as feeling love for Jesus. I agree completely. But suggesting that Jesus exists is not as rational as suggesting your partner exists, and thatā€™s the difference. > [@](#): > > Of course, subjective emotions can get out of control and be harmful rather than good - religion may lead to bloody-minded hatred for others rather than ā€œloveā€; and love itself may become creepy stalker-ism when the person holding that emotion rejects evidence that the object of love is not reciprocating. A person needs both emotion and intellect. Couldnā€™t agree more. Irrationality can often build on rationality. [QUOTE=SmackFu] And whoā€™s to say that religion isnā€™t only about belief, which is just a feeling too? [/QUOTE] Because thereā€™s a difference between saying ā€œI believe God existsā€ and ā€œGod existsā€. I make no denial that people feel God exists. For believers, to say ā€œI believe thisā€ is perfectly rational; after all, they do. But saying ā€œWhat I believe is objective truthā€ goes into irrationality territory; thatā€™s just my opinion, of course, but I think we can say it is fact that the two things are different. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/38 "2007-03-13T17:20:04Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] I would put it this way: a religious person who feels that (for example) not providing sufficient charity and health care to those less well off is against concience and morality is faced with exactly the same dilemma when faced with a rational, reason-based argument that charity is harmful to the incentives required to provide initiative, and that having an underclass living in perpetual squalour, illness and poverty is necessary for a vibrant economy. Those arguments may well be deeply felt and based on sound logic, economic and social facts. A religious person may say ā€œthat is true, but it is offensive to have such misery when the wealth exists to alleviate it - a vibrant economy is not worth such a costā€. Is that sense of offence and outrage disrespectful, in that it attacks core beliefs? [/QUOTE] It might well be, which is fine with me. Now the libertarian might attack the religious personā€™s beliefs if they were solely based on what God said by asking how come God didnā€™t cure poverty? I think you can make a non-God-based moral argument myself, but thatā€™s getting away from the topic. Is your underlying question whether non-religious beliefs should be treated the same way. If so, I say yes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/39 "2007-03-13T17:28:43Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] I agree that someone saying ā€œI feel that Jesus loves meā€ is not irrational. The only evidence required is that someone feels it, and that can happen regardless of whether Jesus exists or not. However; I would suggest that believing Jesus exists is irrational. That requires evidence beyond feelings, objective evidence, and we donā€™t have that (IMHO, we actually have evidence to suggest otherwise). [/QUOTE] I understand the difference you are making between feelings and assertions. But Jesus has to exist in order to love somebody. Thereā€™s not much point in arguing about ā€œJesus loves me,ā€ but it does require other things to be true. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733/40 "2007-03-13T17:36:16Z")
Itā€™s asking a lot to keep a straight face when someone shows up for work with a smudge of dirt on their forehead (oh yeah, Ash Wednesday, you did that _on purpose_, I guess itā€™s OK then). If my co-worker wore a tinfoil hat on his head to protect himself from alien mind control Iā€™d think he was nuts. I may be very polite as I back away slowly, but Iā€™ll still think heā€™s crazy. I do give people with more _conventional_ beliefs a little slack, but it really is objectively odd when you think that ā€œGodā€ cares if you do or donā€™t wear a hat; have a beard, stubble, or are clean shaven; have a long curl at your temple; a dagger at your side; or use zippers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-should-we-respect-religious-beliefs/395733.md?page=3)