Why SHOULDN'T I rob a bank/go on SSI (national healthcare/standard of living)?

[MLS]

@continuity eror

…
I’m not saying that I don’t want to work, either. If I could find a job that didn’t want to make me cut off my own hands and paid more than PA to be “worth it” (FTR, I think about 3k more a year plus health insurance would be enough to make it worth it for me), then working would be no problem. It’s a privilege to have a job like that, though. I really think most conservatives would rather I crawled in a ditch and died.

From the The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (bolding added by me.):

Title I of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 prohibits private employers … from discriminating against qualified individuals with disabilities…
<snip>
A qualified employee or applicant with a disability is an individual who, with or without reasonable accommodation, can perform the essential functions of the job in question. Reasonable accommodation may include, but is not limited to:

Making existing facilities used by employees readily accessible to and usable by persons with disabilities.
Job restructuring, modifying work schedules, reassignment to a vacant position;
Acquiring or modifying equipment or devices, adjusting or modifying examinations, training materials, or policies, and providing qualified readers or interpreters.

In short, you have a disability – I think you said it was arthritis in your hands and/or wrists. Your employer is REQUIRED to do something to make it possible for you to work anyway, unless that employer meets some “undue hardship” requirements.

There are ways to make a data entry workstation comfortable for a person with such conditions as arthritis and carpal tunnel.

Have you asked for such accomodation from your employer?

Also, there is an entire section of their web site that OSHA devotes to computer workstation situations.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

I had a patient today with Hepatitis C. When he was told that he wouldn’t be in prison long enough to be considered for interferon/ribavirin treatment for his infection (which is a GOOD policy, not everyone with the virus should receive this year-long treatment). He then stated quite seriously that he’d have to go commit more crimes after his release, so he could continue getting health care.

We’ve also got a few HIV patients who have been essentially free of AIDS-defining diseases and quite healthy for nearly 20 years now, mainly because they get access to top-notch immunologists and HIV drugs while in prison.

But you still don’t want to have to live in prison. Trust me on this.

[davenportavenger]

@Qadgop the Mercotan

But you still don’t want to have to live in prison. Trust me on this.

Is it worse than dying from AIDS?

@MLS

Have you asked for such accomodation from your employer?

No, because I don’t anticipate working at this job for more than a few months (it’s already been three, and I’m already bugging my temp agency biweekly about putting me in another job). Also, the way the office is set up, you’re never at the same desk twice, so they’d have to either assign me to the same desk every day or get ergonomic keyboards and decent chairs (we’re sitting in what is barely better than folding chairs) for every single desk. If this were going to be a long term job, I might consider asking, but as it is it does not feel worth it, not when I might not be there for even another month. And also, I don’t want it to seem as if I am requesting special treatment (even though I would be) because I don’t want my request to color their opinion of me (why I care about that, I don’t know, but I do). And also, I am afraid they’ll say I am lying, so I’d have to either get my old medical records or find a new doctor to do tests on my joints and write a new diagnosis. Which I cannot afford (going to a doctor).

But this thread isn’t about ADA accomodation, it’s about healthcare and a decent standard of living and why people on SSI and prisoners have a better one than poor workers, and e.g. what the incentive is for poor workers to work instead of living off the system or committing crimes. Talk about derailment.

[davenportavenger]

@furt

And for those taking the “it’s an absurd question” tack:
cite

Well, it worked, didn’t it? He got the surgery. I thought a Canadian would be able to get it anyway, though…

Maybe the uninsured should start committing petty crimes en masse over and over, to make a point. They can’t lock us all up forever, uninsured people are 40%+ of the American population and that number is increasing rapidly. Not that I’m going to be the first one to do this, though. I’ve gotta say, though, that if I needed a surgery I couldn’t afford I would have no qualms about committing a non-violent crime like vandalism or driving without a license so I could go to prison for a short time and get it done. Why should I die when a murderer in my situation would live? Why is my life worth less than someone who takes other people’s lives?

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

@continuity eror

Is it worse than dying from AIDS?

Depends. Some folk would insist on dying free rather than living in prison.

When the HIV inmates leave, I give them a list of local clinics which do HIV care for the poor and indigent. Resources are out there.

[MLS]

Well, I’ll try this one more time, and that’s it.

People on SSI do **not ** have the best health care available. Their options are severely limited. This is not good, but it’s the way it is.

Those with limited income also often have access to free or low-cost health clinics. Obviously not everyone; there tend to be more such facilities in urban areas, for example.

Yes, in an ideal world, everyone would have the best health care there is, cradle to grave. In a utopia, you and I would have the same healh care that, say, Donald Trump does. This is not currently the case.

In an ideal world, a social worker who helps real people with real problems would make more than a baseball player that “works” at playing a game. This is also not the case.

If the company you’re currently working at has conditions that are not ergonomically sound, then everyone is at risk. Perhaps OSHA needs to be called in. BTW, it is also illegal to deny you employment because you need an ergonomically sound work condition.

If you “needed surgery that you could not afford” your only option is not prison. There is charity care. If the stigma of taking charity, or the disapproval of family members prevents you from doing so, then perhaps those family members should be asked to take care of their own? If they won’t or can’t help you, then it’s illogical for them to disapprove if you obtain such help from the rest of us, which is what charity care provides.

Again, if it were me, and my work were causing me to be ill or in pain, I’d find something else – another job or another line of work. It’s not as if the company or agency you’re with is the only one available, is it?

Of course, sometimes it’s easier to talk about how bad you have it than to take action. When I’m tempted to bemoan my fate (and I could if I wanted to), I remind myself that I have four logical choices: One, I can change what’s wrong in the current environment; two, I can change myself; three, I can go somewhere else; four, I can change my attitude and accept the way things are. Doing nothing and moaning about it is not an option. But that’s just me. If a person can’t or won’t do anything besides complain, then s/he must derive more emotional benefit from complaining than from dealing with the situation.

[davenportavenger]

@MLS

Of course, sometimes it’s easier to talk about how bad you have it than to take action. When I’m tempted to bemoan my fate (and I could if I wanted to), I remind myself that I have four logical choices: One, I can change what’s wrong in the current environment; two, I can change myself; three, I can go somewhere else; four, I can change my attitude and accept the way things are. Doing nothing and moaning about it is not an option. But that’s just me. If a person can’t or won’t do anything besides complain, then s/he must derive more emotional benefit from complaining than from dealing with the situation.

Once again, this thread is not about me, it is not about my work situation, I merely used that as a jumping-off anecdote. It IS about the philosophy of work. It IS about the fact that we in many cases treat non-workers or criminals better than we treat law-abiding workers (and yeah, I get that people on SSI don’t have the best medical care, but they do have some; also the availability of free clinics is as you said very patchy, in the town I used to live in there was only one medical clinic with three doctors, not much choice, not a free-care program I can think of), and asking why it is that there’s not more of a movement to recognize and change that. I AM asking why the safety net is higher than the low end of the working ladder. I don’t see how that’s complaining–it is merely stating an observation. In order to make any change we first have to figure out what is wrong and isolate the problem. Maybe some people don’t think having a better standard of living for some people on disability compared to some poor workers is a problem. Maybe others believe that health care for prisoners should be better than that given to folks on the outside, for whatever reason. Those are the views I’m trying to understand, because they are different than mine. I wasn’t looking for tips on how to get SSI or asking for input on my current work situation. I’ll summarize the OP in one sentence, again–“why should someone who has no hope for advancement work when they have the same or a lower standard of living than someone on SSI or a prisoner?” That was the question. Looking back, I probably should not have included any personal info at all, but I like starting off with an anecdote. Personal as political, n’at.

Are you all viewing this in IMHO or MPSIMS? It’s still in Great Debates on my screen.

[John_Mace]

Why? Becomes our laws and social programs are a mishmash of legislation that were built up over time, often without a clear vision of the overall system. If we wiped everything clean and started from scratch we might be able to make everything logical and consistent. But someone somewhere saw one “problem” that that person wanted to solve, he solved that problem, and then either moved on to something else or just stopped. Sometimes those inconsistencies get fixed, and sometimes not.

Here’s an example. When the carpool lanes were first installed where I live (Northern CA), a hefty fine was created for carpool cheaters. After awhile, people started to notice that the fine for carpool violation was greater than the fine for running a red light. That was an obvious inconsistency, and IIRC, it got fixed.

If you’re looking for an explanation beyond that, I’m not sure there is one.

[CaveMike]

@continuity eror

Maybe the uninsured should start committing petty crimes en masse over and over, to make a point. They can’t lock us all up forever, uninsured people are 40%+ of the American population and that number is increasing rapidly. Not that I’m going to be the first one to do this, though. I’ve gotta say, though, that if I needed a surgery I couldn’t afford I would have no qualms about committing a non-violent crime like vandalism or driving without a license so I could go to prison for a short time and get it done. Why should I die when a murderer in my situation would live? Why is my life worth less than someone who takes other people’s lives?

I understand your question is hypothetical in order to contrast the health insurance of the working poor with prisoners. However, I will make a few points about the hypothetical. First, some fraction of the 40%+ do not have an urgent need for medical care and of course wouldn’t trade their freedom for something not urgent. Most healthy people are optimistic about their future health. Second, another part of that 40%+ have never had health insurance and wouldn’t expect it. Third, commiting a non-violent crime might not get one jail-time and thus the associated medical attention.[sup]*[/sup] Furthermore, the charges might hamper one’s employment and make a tough situation worse. Fourth, one might be unwilling to commit a serious enough offense to guarantee jail-time because that offense would be at the expense of another person. Finally, I suspect many people would find prison to be a miserable experience Would it be possible that their quality of life overall would be worse even if their physical health improved? And wouldn’t getting thrown in jail be a more radical solution than moving to a country where health care is cheap or free? (Not that either “solution” is easy or practical.)

In any case, I am truly sorry to hear how rough your personal situation is and I hope some of the ideas others have posted in this thread are useful.

• I admit that I don’t know much about criminal systems. Maybe it is possible to guarantee jail-time even for minor offences.

[Evil_Captor]

@continuity eror

It IS about the fact that we in many cases treat non-workers or criminals better than we treat law-abiding workers (and yeah, I get that people on SSI don’t have the best medical care, but they do have some; also the availability of free clinics is as you said very patchy, in the town I used to live in there was only one medical clinic with three doctors, not much choice, not a free-care program I can think of), and asking why it is that there’s not more of a movement to recognize and change that.

The reason there’s not more of a movement is that a lot of conservatives and libertarians oppose anything that might cost them more money in taxes, which they have a hysterical fear of. I think it’s an exagerration to say they would prefer to see people dying in the street rather than see a universal health care system instituted, but they’re definitely more comfortable with the present system than the prospect of any kind of government-run program that would actually give low-income workers care that matches that of prisoners and indigents. Plus, doctors and insurance companies, for all their complaining, are still making out like bandits and wouldn’t care for any government controls on health care costs. With that kind of unholy alliance, people probably will be dying in the streets before change happens.

But rest assured, the political base that makes it possible for doctors and insurance companies to keep things as they are now are the libertarians and conservatives.