# Why shouldn't people have to pay for shopping bags? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415 "2015-02-11T20:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/61 "2015-02-13T17:42:14Z")
> [@bump](#): > > What I was griping about is the idea that they’ll charge me 5 cents a bag and THEN prohibit me from bringing those bags back for reuse. That does seem a bit much but I can come up with possible (poor) reasons they don’t allow it: 1. It’s harder to police if anybody can say “This is my own bag.” 2. Easier to administrate if baggers don’t have to keep track of new and used bags. Like I say, they’re poor reasons but that’s what happens in bureaucracy. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That’s nonsense. Not bringing your own bag to a grocery store does not cause pollution of rivers. > > My plastic grocery bags are stored in a holder in my kitchen pantry, where they get reused for things like carrying lunches to work, disposing of kitty litter, lining wastebaskets, etc. > > Those that are torn, or soiled from things like leaky raw meat packages, stay in the garage until they are returned to the store for recycling. > > Exactly zero go into the river. Think of it as childless people who have to pay taxes for schools. Overall it’s good for the locality but it means some people have to pay when it has no direct benefit. Given that it’s 5 cents/bag it’s hardly onerous. My feeling is that the tax works not because of the cost but because it makes people think. One time I was behind a guy checking out. When asked if he wanted a bag he absentmindedly said yes. He walked outside, took out his item, and immediately threw out the bag in the bin just outside the door. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/62 "2015-02-13T17:58:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > 53% of DC residents polled support the law, 20% don’t care either way, and 16% are “bothered” by the law. So, you’re wrong. That doesn’t make it popular does it? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/63 "2015-02-13T18:03:02Z")
I kind of like the DC bag tax. I hate it when merchants automatically put single-item purchases in a bag. I used to have a closet stuffed with nasty, useless plastic bags. Now I keep a handful of reusable ones around, and if I forget it, I buy another one. Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/64 "2015-02-13T18:10:26Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Have you ever thrown a plastic bag into a waterway, or let it go so it gets into streets, trees, power lines, or whatever? > > No, and neither have I. I’d bet that 95% of the people on this message board haven’t either. Why should everyone else have to pay a tax because some people are lowlife scum? The problem is that they are so light that even when they are thrown in the garbage, the wind picks them up and carries them all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/65 "2015-02-13T18:23:06Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That’s nonsense. Not bringing your own bag to a grocery store does not cause pollution of rivers. > > My plastic grocery bags are stored in a holder in my kitchen pantry, where they get reused for things like carrying lunches to work, disposing of kitty litter, lining wastebaskets, etc. > > Those that are torn, or soiled from things like leaky raw meat packages, stay in the garage until they are returned to the store for recycling. > > Exactly zero go into the river. Yes, on the internet no one is a jerk when they drive, or smoke, or use an escalator, or sit on a bus, and no one ever litters. But amazingly, we all encounter litter and obnoxious smokers and people who drive like assholes and people who block escalators and people who sprawl on the bus or refuse to get out of the way. I wonder why that is? It’s a real mystery! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/66 "2015-02-13T18:36:38Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Sure, but had they implemented it as a tax, nobody would have gone for it. The implication of the ads and literature was that the stores had to charge you, but not that the city got to keep the whole thing. > > No, that’s a city policy. That’s what makes it so sketchy in my eyes. Why would they care in the least if people reused the plastic bags, unless they want people to buy the bags? I guess your city is doing a good thing in a stupid way. But do you honestly think that there are people who support a “bag environmental fee of 5 cents” but would violently oppose a “5 cent bag tax?” > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That’s nonsense. Not bringing your own bag to a grocery store does not cause pollution of rivers. Limiting the use of plastic bags improves control of litter. End of story. > [@](#): > > Exactly zero go into the river. This is an interesting take on the Tea Party/Libertarian concept of personal responsibility: “If I am not the source of the problem, the problem doesn’t exist.” > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That doesn’t make it popular does it? Could you shift the goal posts a little further? First you said that “no one really likes the bag tax,” and I point out that a majority of citizens (and even more businesses) like the bag tax, and very few oppose it. Now you’re quibbling over the concept of “popularity.” I imagine your next post may tackle the question of “what really is a plastic bag, anyway?” to which I reserve the right to argue about how many angels really can dance on the head of a pin, and what does “five cents” really mean? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/67 "2015-02-13T19:33:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Limiting the use of plastic bags improves control of litter. End of story. No, it’s not the end of the story, and you don’t get to proclaim so, by fiat. X number of accidents with injuries are caused by speeding. Do we tax every driver to control speeding, or do we ticket those that are actually speeding? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/68 "2015-02-13T20:11:23Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, it’s not the end of the story, and you don’t get to proclaim so, by fiat. > > X number of accidents with injuries are caused by speeding. Do we tax every driver to control speeding, or do we ticket those that are actually speeding? We tax cigarettes to reduce consumption. That’s a better analogy. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/69 "2015-02-13T20:23:54Z")
No one has yet mentioned [microplastics](http://www.sciencemag.org/content/345/6193/144). So [consider it mentioned](http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/arctic-sea-ice-polluted-with-microplastics-1.2660021). And while they have many sources, [plastic bags constitute one of them](http://www.adventurescience.org/microplastics.html). ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/70 "2015-02-13T20:25:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > We tax cigarettes to reduce consumption. That’s a better analogy. Not really. Only something like 20% of the population smokes, whereas everybody buys groceries. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/71 "2015-02-13T20:30:58Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > And while they have many sources, [plastic bags constitute one of them](http://www.adventurescience.org/microplastics.html). None of the plastic bags from my pantry or garage will wind up in the ocean, I promise. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/72 "2015-02-13T20:32:43Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Not really. Only something like 20% of the population smokes, whereas everybody buys groceries. So your claim is that people can’t feed themselves without free plastic bags? ETA: would you say that you are a strong supporter of expanding the food stamp program? After all, if you claim that access to free plastic bags is strongly connected to people’s ability to eat, then I suppose you’d also strongly support expanding subsidies for buying groceries in the first place, eh? Somehow, I suspect that is not the case. And I’ll add that the additional cost of tobacco products is at least partially attributable to the 20% smoking statistic you cited. Without higher excise taxes, the use of tobacco would probably be higher. So I think my point holds. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/73 "2015-02-13T20:33:09Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I kind of like the DC bag tax. I hate it when merchants automatically put single-item purchases in a bag. I used to have a closet stuffed with nasty, useless plastic bags. Now I keep a handful of reusable ones around, and if I forget it, I buy another one. Works for me. So everybody needs to be taxed in order to get you to do something you wanted to do anyway. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/74 "2015-02-13T20:37:28Z")
> [@yoyodyne](#): > > So everybody needs to be taxed in order to get you to do something you wanted to do anyway. I’m just saying I like it, and it’s popular with me. Obviously we shouldn’t base public policy on my whims. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/75 "2015-02-13T20:42:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > We tax cigarettes to reduce consumption. That’s a better analogy. I agree with that analogy (I made it myself, upthread). I also think it likely that, in general, “sin taxes” tend to “work” in that they create the incentives that they are intended to create. The real debate, to my mind, is that “sin taxes” are inherently regressive. This must be weighed against the social good they are aimed at achieving. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/76 "2015-02-13T20:43:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So your claim is that people can’t feed themselves without free plastic bags? No, but poor people spend a higher percentage of their income on groceries, so a bag tax affects them more. > [@](#): > > And I’ll add that the additional cost of tobacco products is at least partially attributable to the 20% smoking statistic you cited. Without higher excise taxes, the use of tobacco would probably be higher. So I think my point holds. And higher fines on littering would reduce littering. Think of the increased penalties against drunk driving, including financial, automatic loss of license, and jail time. Those reduced drunk driving too. We still don’t tax everybody because some people drink and drive. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/77 "2015-02-13T20:58:31Z")
But not everyone is being taxed, no more than cigarette taxes amount to “taxing everyone.” People who want plastic bags pay a little bit for them. BFD. People who bring their own bags often get a little discount on their purchase. Do you think that’s unfair, too? I would strongly urge you to go back and look at the quality of your arguments in this thread. They are perfect examples of misrepresenting simple facts (“Everyone gets taxed!”), red herrings (“Bag taxes are bad because speeding!”), some kind of bizarre self-justification of your own behavior to deny that there is a problem (“I don’t litter so polluted rivers are someone else’s problem”), and several other really, really poorly thought out arguments. The point that has been brought up that bag taxes may impact the poor more is a fair point, but if DC is any indication, free reusable bags are now widely available to pretty much anyone who wants them (see my previous cites). The other well constructed argument that you’ve alluded to, but not outright said, is the cheapskate argument: you just want free bags for yourself, damned what anyone else things, you’d prefer to save five cents. To which I say, life is tough, pal, and it isn’t all about the coins in your purse. ETA: I notice you didn’t respond to my question about food stamps. If free bags are so important to the poor, would you support upping food stamp payments by a few bucks a month to cover the increased cost of grocery shopping? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/78 "2015-02-13T21:11:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The point that has been brought up that bag taxes may impact the poor more is a fair point, but if DC is any indication, free reusable bags are now widely available to pretty much anyone who wants them (see my previous cites). Nothing is free. Somebody is paying for them. > [@](#): > > The other well constructed argument that you’ve alluded to, but not outright said, is the cheapskate argument: you just want free bags for yourself, damned what anyone else things, you’d prefer to save five cents. To which I say, life is tough, pal, and it isn’t all about the coins in your purse. Please stop ascribing motives to my posts. First it was that I must be a member of the Tea Party, or a libertarian. Now I’m a cheapskate. Just stop. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/79 "2015-02-13T22:19:08Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, it’s not the end of the story, and you don’t get to proclaim so, by fiat. > > X number of accidents with injuries are caused by speeding. Do we tax every driver to control speeding, or do we ticket those that are actually speeding? If you could figure out a way of taxing people who speed, it would probably reduce speeding a lot. Maybe if everyone buys into the insurance companies monitoring how you drive. Still even if it true that you have never, ever, lost a plastic bag to the wind, they do get to the streams somehow. And I doubt that many of the ones there got put there deliberately. If you have ever done adopt-a-highway duty, you’ll know all sorts of crap gets loose. When I did it I picked up tons of plastic bags. And this was in and around Princeton NJ. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/80 "2015-02-13T22:41:10Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Nothing is free. Somebody is paying for them. In stark contrast to your “everyone is being taxed!” argument, which is factually wrong, you’ve hit on an interesting point. If bags are free, all customers are paying for them. If bags are not free, the users pay. Why should poor people pay for your free bags? > [@](#): > > Please stop ascribing motives to my posts. First it was that I must be a member of the Tea Party, or a libertarian. Now I’m a cheapskate. Just stop. I didn’t say you were this, that or anything. I referred to the “cheapskate argument,” which I do not intend to reflect on your character, but instead a type of thinking in which any minimal cost increase cannot be justified. For all I know, you are a generous tipper and lover of expensive cars and wines. It is simply your argument - that paying 5 cents for a bag - that has a certain character to it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415.md?page=5)