# Why shouldn't people have to pay for shopping bags? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415 "2015-02-11T20:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/81 "2015-02-13T23:17:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Still even if it true that you have never, ever, lost a plastic bag to the wind, they do get to the streams somehow. And I doubt that many of the ones there got put there deliberately. If you have ever done adopt-a-highway duty, you’ll know all sorts of crap gets loose. When I did it I picked up tons of plastic bags. And this was in and around Princeton NJ. That is a big part of the reason that this is a failed argument: > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > None of the plastic bags from my pantry or garage will wind up in the ocean, I promise. No such promise can ever be assured. The estimated 8 million metric tonnes of plastic, plastic particles and microparticles that enter the oceans every year doesn’t all come from intentional dumping over the railing of a boat. It comes from loose litter, plastic bags blowing in the wind, stuff getting into lakes, rivers, and streams, from storm sewers and drainage systems, carried by groundwater from leaky landfills, and any number of other sources. If plastic bags are out there, they will get into the oceans, and they’re out there – I read somewhere that the US alone discards an average of 1200 plastic bags a year for every man, woman, and child in the nation. And every single one of them is unnecessary. Which is the other part of the failed argument. As someone already pointed out, “I’m not the problem”, whether true or not, is not the same as “there is no problem”. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/82 "2015-02-14T00:12:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I guess your city is doing a good thing in a stupid way. > > But do you honestly think that there are people who support a “bag environmental fee of 5 cents” but would violently oppose a “5 cent bag tax?” > > Limiting the use of plastic bags improves control of litter. End of story. > > This is an interesting take on the Tea Party/Libertarian concept of personal responsibility: “If I am not the source of the problem, the problem doesn’t exist.” Post snipped I am not a Libertarian nor a Tea Partier, however I believe the correct way of viewing their position would be “If I am not the source of the problem, why am I being penalized?”. Of course your straw version works better on this board. Slee ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/83 "2015-02-14T00:22:22Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > That is a big part of the reason that this is a failed argument: > > No such promise can ever be assured. The estimated 8 million metric tonnes of plastic, plastic particles and microparticles that enter the oceans every year doesn’t all come from intentional dumping over the railing of a boat. It comes from loose litter, plastic bags blowing in the wind, stuff getting into lakes, rivers, and streams, from storm sewers and drainage systems, carried by groundwater from leaky landfills, and any number of other sources. If plastic bags are out there, they will get into the oceans, and they’re out there – I read somewhere that the US alone discards an average of 1200 plastic bags a year for every man, woman, and child in the nation. And every single one of them is unnecessary. Literally zero of my bags get blown into the wind, or into lakes, rivers, streams, storm sewers, or drainage systems, let alone the ocean. If I lived any further away from the ocean, I’d be in Kansas. Not littering is not hard. Why not go after the litterers, instead? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/84 "2015-02-14T00:31:16Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > I am not a Libertarian nor a Tea Partier, however I believe the correct way of viewing their position would be “If I am not the source of the problem, why am I being penalized?” Because that’s how laws work. You don’t get to unilaterally declare yourself exempt from any law you don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/85 "2015-02-14T00:41:50Z")
What steps do you take to insure that the bags you dispose of are secure for the next several hundred years until they degrade? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/86 "2015-02-14T00:55:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What steps do you take to insure that the bags you dispose of are secure for the next several hundred years until they degrade? Why not fine those that litter, instead of making practically everyone else pay a tax? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/87 "2015-02-14T00:57:26Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > Post snipped > > I am not a Libertarian nor a Tea Partier, however I believe the correct way of viewing their position would be “If I am not the source of the problem, why am I being penalized?”. > > Of course your straw version works better on this board. > > Slee Can you prove that you are not **a** source of the problem. (You’re definitely not **the** source of it.) We forget easily. Perhaps you lost a bag or two and forgot about it? Hardly something to keep us awake at night. And, at the checkout counter, how do they distinguish the ones who are super-careful from the ones who don’t give a crap? Your argument seems close to the “I’d never get a bad mortgage, so we don’t need regulations” argument. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/88 "2015-02-14T00:59:40Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why not fine those that litter, instead of making practically everyone else pay a tax? If you answer my question first, I’m happy to answer your question for me. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/89 "2015-02-14T01:00:36Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why not fine those that litter, instead of making practically everyone else pay a tax? We have littering laws already. Are our highways spotless? I don’t know where you live, but where I see a cop enforcing speeding laws once a year or so. I’m sure they’d put a lot of priority on enforcing more stringent littering laws. Not to mention littering in front of your house. But when Big Brother takes over, the problem will be solved. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/90 "2015-02-14T01:22:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If you answer my question first, I’m happy to answer your question for me. No, I don’t support increased spending on food stamps. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/91 "2015-02-14T01:24:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We have littering laws already. Are our highways spotless? > I don’t know where you live, but where I see a cop enforcing speeding laws once a year or so. I’m sure they’d put a lot of priority on enforcing more stringent littering laws. Not to mention littering in front of your house. > But when Big Brother takes over, the problem will be solved. Our highways definitely need to be spotless. We should outlaw all packaging, lest it be used for evil. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/92 "2015-02-14T01:35:09Z")
Is it possible to find out where your bag tax is going? In post number #3 I stated that the stores charged 5 cents here but another penny of tax was charged on top of that. The 5 cents is a charge that goes directly to the World Wildlife Fund. The additional one cent is part of the province of Ontario’s harmonized sales tax. I’m far from a tree-hugging environmentalist, but this seems like a good compromise to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/93 "2015-02-14T02:02:02Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, I don’t support increased spending on food stamps. In DC, abiut 12% of people who get littering tickets pay the fine. It’s a waste of police officer time to track down littering scofflaws. The better solution is to reduce the number of bags overall. Compliance is much easier because you just have to audit businesses, not skip-trace litterers. Your “better” solution is a worse use of resources and it will never, ever work. Plus, plastic bags in landfills may lead to other kinds of environmental damage, such as water pollution. Again, tell me how you insure that your bags do not pollute the environment over the next few hundred years? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/94 "2015-02-14T02:23:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > In DC, abiut 12% of people who get littering tickets pay the fine. So the residents of DC aren’t paying their legally required fines? Somehow, that’s not very surprising. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/95 "2015-02-14T02:37:53Z")
Be that as it may, the bag tax works and your idea doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/96 "2015-02-14T02:40:28Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Be that as it may, the bag tax works and your idea doesn’t. Which idea, supposedly of mine, doesn’t work? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/97 "2015-02-14T02:43:58Z")
Relying on anti-littering laws to eliminate bag pollution. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/98 "2015-02-14T02:50:18Z")
Why are 88% of your friends and neighbors scofflaws? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/99 "2015-02-14T03:29:15Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why are 88% of your friends and neighbors scofflaws? Well, I paid mine, but DC slapped me with a$75.00 littering ticket after they failed to pick up my garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/100 "2015-02-14T04:29:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What steps do you take to insure that the bags you dispose of are secure for the next several hundred years until they degrade? They go into a trash bag after having been used as a trash bag. What I don’t use I recycle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415.md?page=6)