# Why shouldn't people have to pay for shopping bags? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415 "2015-02-11T20:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/161 "2015-02-18T00:13:12Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It’s [not like we’re running out of space](http://www.mythbusters.com/common-myths-about-landfills.html) for landfills. I didn’t say we were running out of space for landfills. But if a specific landfill fills up, the trash will have to be carted further away. That is reason enough to reduce the rate we are filling the one we have. ---
**Author:** ![bashere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bashere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bashere)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/162 "2015-02-18T00:25:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I can’t find a source that states this was an obligation. A lot of retailers gave money to charities, but this was not tied to bag “fees”. > > [Where are the plastic bag fees going?](http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2010/01/07/where_are_the_plastic_bag_fees_going.html) > > The city had various plans: > > [Toronto wants stores to donate part of 5-cent bag fee to planting trees](http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2012/05/07/toronto_wants_stores_to_donate_part_of_5cent_bag_fee_to_planting_trees.html) Nope, you are correct: merely encouraged to. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/163 "2015-02-18T00:54:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I didn’t say we were running out of space for landfills. But if a specific landfill fills up, the trash will have to be carted further away. That is reason enough to reduce the rate we are filling the one we have. Granted - but that’s not specific to plastic bags. There is nothing inherently worse in plastic bags as compared to other garbage. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/164 "2015-02-18T01:34:46Z")
No one really said they are inherently worse as landfill. As I said it’s an easy target to reduce landfill. It could be argued it’s inherently worse as litter since it can sail through the air and all. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/165 "2015-02-18T06:27:08Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Granted - but that’s not specific to plastic bags. There is nothing inherently worse in plastic bags as compared to other garbage. True. Most of the reduction in the volume of my trash comes from recycling papers, cans and plastic and from putting garden waste into the green can. As others have said, the main reason is in the reduction of pollution, and, since I live close to the Bay, reduction in plastic that gets in there and harms sea life. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/166 "2015-02-19T00:02:39Z")
This isn’t a fee to reimburse the stores for the bags. This is a revenue generator for the state. The state will now **require** stores to charge you $0.05 per bag (plus sales tax) you use, even if it only cost the store $0.005 per bag. The state will then collect the sales tax on every bag that is sold. The stores don’t want to charge you for bags. Store owners actually lobbied against the new requirement. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/167 "2015-02-19T00:54:00Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > This isn’t a fee to reimburse the stores for the bags. This is a revenue generator for the state. The state will now **require** stores to charge you $0.05 per bag (plus sales tax) you use, even if it only cost the store $0.005 per bag. The state will then collect the sales tax on every bag that is sold. The stores don’t want to charge you for bags. Store owners actually lobbied against the new requirement. You really think the municipal government did this so the state government will haul in a penny per bag sold in Portland? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/168 "2015-02-19T01:51:14Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > This isn’t a fee to reimburse the stores for the bags. This is a revenue generator for the state. The state will now **require** stores to charge you $0.05 per bag (plus sales tax) you use, even if it only cost the store $0.005 per bag. The state will then collect the sales tax on every bag that is sold. The stores don’t want to charge you for bags. Store owners actually lobbied against the new requirement. Depends on where you are. [Here is the ordinance for Alameda County, California.](http://www.cawrecycles.org/files/Stopwaste_ordinance_bag_executed.pdf) On page 5 (it’s pdf so I can’t cut and paste on this computer) it says that stores may make paper bags (which are defined) available for sale to customers for 10 cents a bag. Nowhere does it mention any of this money going to the county or state (except sales tax, of course.) So this is not a tax. BTW, reusable bag is also defined. It must be able to carry a load of 22 pounds over a distance of at least 175 feet 125 times without breaking. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/169 "2015-02-19T04:07:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I didn’t say we were running out of space for landfills. But if a specific landfill fills up, the trash will have to be carted further away. That is reason enough to reduce the rate we are filling the one we have. In most locations there are also major start-up and shut-down costs for landfills, and the longer a current one can be used the lower the costs (and required taxes) over the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/170 "2015-02-19T09:04:30Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > This isn’t a fee to reimburse the stores for the bags. This is a revenue generator for the state. The state will now **require** stores to charge you $0.05 per bag (plus sales tax) you use, even if it only cost the store $0.005 per bag. The state will then collect the sales tax on every bag that is sold. The stores don’t want to charge you for bags. Store owners actually lobbied against the new requirement. It hardly generates money for the state if there is competition. The additional 5 cent charge is 5 cents extra profit for the store, enabling 5 cents to be removed from the offer price of the goods, if the store is selling in a competitive market. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/171 "2015-02-19T15:34:05Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You really think the municipal government did this so the state government will haul in a penny per bag sold in Portland? Yes, otherwise why did they structure the fee so that it would result in a sales tax collection by the state? They could have easily structured it where the state didn’t collect any tax or fee from the penalty. Yes, they also created it to try and incentivize consumers to bring their own bags to reduce the amount of plastic and paper bags consumed. > [@Voyager](#): > > Depends on where you are. My comments and the OP are referring to upcoming bag fee in Maine. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/172 "2015-02-19T17:29:22Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > My comments and the OP are referring to upcoming bag fee in Maine. :rolleyes: California taxes less than Maine. Who woulda thunk it? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/173 "2015-02-19T17:56:24Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Yes, otherwise why did they structure the fee so that it would result in a sales tax collection by the state? They could have easily structured it where the state didn’t collect any tax or fee from the penalty. : This will bring in only a trivial amount to state coffers and city councillors have no incentive to do so regardless. I’m sure they structured it this way for other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/174 "2015-02-20T15:59:25Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Could you shift the goal posts a little further? First you said that “no one really likes the bag tax,” and I point out that a majority of citizens (and even more businesses) like the bag tax, and very few oppose it. Now you’re quibbling over the concept of “popularity.” I imagine your next post may tackle the question of “what really is a plastic bag, anyway?” to which I reserve the right to argue about how many angels really can dance on the head of a pin, and what does “five cents” really mean? You’re the one that used the word popular. And frankly, you haven’t proven that these people like the bag tax either. Heck I support the bag tax, I don’t like it. The only poll I am aware of is the poll by Opinionworks, its kind of like commissioning a poll by American Crossroads on the importance of getting to the bottom of what happened in Benghazi to support having a permanent committee on Benghazi investigations. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/175 "2015-02-20T16:59:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You’re the one that used the word popular. And frankly, you haven’t proven that these people like the bag tax either. Heck I support the bag tax, I don’t like it. The only poll I am aware of is the poll by Opinionworks, its kind of like commissioning a poll by American Crossroads on the importance of getting to the bottom of what happened in Benghazi to support having a permanent committee on Benghazi investigations. It’s not a tax. The retailers keep the fee. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/176 "2015-02-20T17:52:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You’re the one that used the word popular. And frankly, you haven’t proven that these people like the bag tax either. Heck I support the bag tax, I don’t like it. The only poll I am aware of is the poll by Opinionworks, its kind of like commissioning a poll by American Crossroads on the importance of getting to the bottom of what happened in Benghazi to support having a permanent committee on Benghazi investigations. It is a frigid day in DC, but the wind chill just dropped another few degrees because of all that hand-waving. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/177 "2015-02-20T18:11:01Z")
Ok, so plastic is BAD. I get that. So how do people handle cleaning up pet poop? I’m being serious here. You can buy pet poop bags ( like for use when you walk your dog), you can use plastic grocery bags, you can use a “litter locker” that comes with a plastic liner. They key word is obviously PLASTIC. Reducing the use of plastic is good, but I doubt we’ll get rid of plastic bags entirely. I’m certainly not collecting the daily dirty cat litter in a paper bag. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/178 "2015-02-20T18:51:16Z")
A couple of us mentioned upthread that dog poop bags are a lot thinner and smaller than a grocery bag. So that switch is still reducing plastic. I am sure you’re right that plastic bags in general are going to be around a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/179 "2015-02-20T20:19:12Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > Ok, so plastic is BAD. I get that. > > So how do people handle cleaning up pet poop? > > I’m being serious here. You can buy pet poop bags ( like for use when you walk your dog), you can use plastic grocery bags, you can use a “litter locker” that comes with a plastic liner. They key word is obviously PLASTIC. > > Reducing the use of plastic is good, but I doubt we’ll get rid of plastic bags entirely. I’m certainly not collecting the daily dirty cat litter in a paper bag. One of the big problems with plastic bags is that when they are emptied they can blow around and lodge in all sorts of unpleasant places. Plastic bags filled with dog poop never get emptied, and why I drop one by mistake it tends to go straight down. So not a big problem. In any case we know that eliminating them is impossible (plastic bags for meat and vegetable are still allowed and still free) - we just want to minimize their use. As I mentioned, we use vegetable bags and the bag the newspaper comes in. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415/180 "2015-02-20T22:03:05Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > Ok, so plastic is BAD. I get that. > > So how do people handle cleaning up pet poop? > > I’m being serious here. You can buy pet poop bags ( like for use when you walk your dog), you can use plastic grocery bags, you can use a “litter locker” that comes with a plastic liner. They key word is obviously PLASTIC. You can and should use\* biodegradable \*pet poop bags. Plastic shopping bags are not biodegradable. They also get all over the place, even when dudes try to recycle them. I have seen the recycle trucks driving down the freeway, with Plastic shopping bags blowing out the top every couple miles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-people-have-to-pay-for-shopping-bags/712415.md?page=10)