Why shouldn't people have to pay for shopping bags?

[CarnalK]

Yes I live in Ontario and despite it’s Seattle like qualities I’ve never seen bag recycling areas in our grocery stores. Would you agree with Voyager that they don’t get much use?

[D_Anconia]

@CarnalK

Would you agree with Voyager that they don’t get much use?

No, they are usually full to the point of overflowing.

[CarnalK]

Well good for you guys. Building up to that kind of voluntary recycling effort isn’t easy.

[SciFiSam]

@BigT

Lucky for you you can shop often enough that you only need a couple bags. I would need eight per trip (assuming they are paper bag sized, not plastic bag sized), as we buy for the month or so. And the only ones I have seen are $2 a bag and still remarkably fragile, to the point I’d be surprised if they survived more than a few trips. (Especially those handles–barely attached.)

What I find strange is that, even with people like us who get a lot of bags, the cost is still pretty low compared to anything else. For use, that means that, even though Aldi’s charges for bags, we still always get them anyways. You guys (i.e. people in cities, especially the ones big enough to do this sort of thing) are generally much more affluent. Why the hell does it make you get fewer bags?

You’re seeing some strange reusable bags if they cost $2 but only last a few trips. The reusable bags I’m thinking of, and probably what most people here are thinking of, are made of canvas and last for several years of repeated use.

You don’t have to use special shopping bags, anyway: you can use rucksacks/backpacks, sports bags, cardboard boxes, anything. I find it hard to believe you don’t have some of those in your home. Rucksacks are one of the best way to carry shopping anyway.

Anyone who really, really loves plastic shopping bags ike the kind you get in shops, and wants to continue using them for their trash bags or whatever, can order them online themselves and pay far less than shops charge them. This takes a bit of planning and a minor outlay (like $2) and I guess that could be beyond some people, so they’d just have to use rucksacks for shopping and normal waste paper bags, which hold more than plastic shopping bags anyway so work out cheaper, for trash.

[Bookkeeper]

@CarnalK

Yes I live in Ontario and despite it’s Seattle like qualities I’ve never seen bag recycling areas in our grocery stores. Would you agree with Voyager that they don’t get much use?

Most grocery stores here have them.

And anyone who objects to paying for plastic bags has an easy solution - bring your own reusable bags.

[wolfpup]

@D_Anconia

Every single grocery store that I’ve ever been in, from mega regional chains to small mom and pop’s have a recycling bin near the front door.

The bags are even printed with “please recycle this bag at you nearest store.”

My response was to the poster suggesting that I throw surplus bags into the recycling bin. In many communities, including the ones I’ve lived in, plastic bags are not accepted in domestic recycling bins, most likely because of sorting problems. As for the ones in store, I don’t recall ever seeing one. They may well exist but they certainly aren’t prominent and so are probably not widely used – nor are the current bags I have around printed with any such information. I agree with Voyager …

@Voyager

My store had one, before plastic bags were banned. But hardly anyone ever used them. Why would they when there was no incentive to do so? And the people who cared enough to go to the effort to recycle plastic bags probably are happy to use reusable bags.

The fact of the matter is, where plastic bags are used, some non-trivial amount of them will get into all aspects of the environment – landfills, waterways, oceans. The best solution is not having them.

[D_Anconia]

@wolfpup

As for the ones in store, I don’t recall ever seeing one. They may well exist but they certainly aren’t prominent and so are probably not widely used – nor are the current bags I have around printed with any such information.

I’m not asking for your address, of course, but where do you live?

[Mijin]

@wolfpup

The fact of the matter is, where plastic bags are used, some non-trivial amount of them will get into all aspects of the environment – landfills, waterways, oceans. The best solution is not having them.

OK, that’s the best solution.
But a better solution than giving them out free, is giving them out for a small fee, which has the effect of reducing use. Agreed?

[Magiver]

@CarnalK

The bags i now use are maybe an eighth the size and clearly less thick. And no, I don’t pay the city for their use. It’s part of my normal garbage pickup. I know, so hypocritical that one bag is free yet another type of bag is so discriminated against. Jesse Jackson where are you??

The plastic bags I get from the store are a little under 1/4 ounce and the reusable ones are about 2 ounces. Can’t find my calipers but I can’t imagine your doggy bags are thinner than a standard grocery bag. There are different grades of course.

[SciFiSam]

@Magiver

The plastic bags I get from the store are a little under 1/4 ounce and the reusable ones are about 2 ounces. Can’t find my calipers but I can’t imagine your doggy bags are thinner than a standard grocery bag. There are different grades of course.

Doggy bags are much thinner than even the flimsiest plastic grocery bag. They’re also a lot smaller, so you’re using less plastic per poop.

[Pjen]

We used to use our shopping bags to line small waste bins and to dispose of cat litter. Bags became chargeable in Scotland a few months ago and the supply at home ran out as we started using the reuse bags we had previously bought and often forgotten!. I bought a box of 40 economy bin liners for £1.80 to do the previous jobs. They were thinner and smaller than Tesco shopping bags which cost 5p each (money going to charity).

I have now started using 5p bags again for shopping!

[Malthus]

@Leaffan

Is it possible to find out where your bag tax is going? In post number #3 I stated that the stores charged 5 cents here but another penny of tax was charged on top of that.

The 5 cents is a charge that goes directly to the World Wildlife Fund. The additional one cent is part of the province of Ontario’s harmonized sales tax.

I’m far from a tree-hugging environmentalist, but this seems like a good compromise to me.

Not sure where this comes from. In Toronto, my understanding is that the 5 cents went to the retailer (when the fee existed).

One common complaint about the plastic bag fee was that retailers kept the money. But that was not actually a bug, it was a feature. First, of course, it gives retailers some incentive to actually charge the fee. But more importantly, it meant that the fee didn’t require any bureaucracy, any government oversight to calculate and collect the fees. We got a public policy goal (less waste) without having to expand government at all.

The elegance of the plastic bag fee - Spacing Toronto

Perhaps other Ontario municipalities did it differently.

[Bone]

@wolfpup

The fact of the matter is, where plastic bags are used, some non-trivial amount of them will get into all aspects of the environment – landfills, waterways, oceans. The best solution is not having them.

What’s wrong with plastic bags in landfill? It’s not like anything breaks down in a landfill anyways.

[Voyager]

@Bone

What’s wrong with plastic bags in landfill? It’s not like anything breaks down in a landfill anyways.

Because we want to keep as much as possible out of landfill, to extend the life of the sites we have. For our typical week we have 3x as much recycling as trash and also 3x as much organic waste which goes into our green can to be composted - not counting the stuff we bring out to our compost bin. It adds up. But the problem would be less if we could guarantee that all the plastic bags made it to the landfill and stayed there.

[Bone]

@Voyager

Because we want to keep as much as possible out of landfill, to extend the life of the sites we have. For our typical week we have 3x as much recycling as trash and also 3x as much organic waste which goes into our green can to be composted - not counting the stuff we bring out to our compost bin. It adds up. But the problem would be less if we could guarantee that all the plastic bags made it to the landfill and stayed there.

It’s not like we’re running out of space for landfills.

Myth #3: We’re Running Out of Landfill Space!

While it’s a good idea to do all you can to conserve landfill space, we won’t be running out of space for landfills anytime soon. You often hear a statistic cited that almost every dump now open will be filled and closed within a few years, and that’s true. But that’s just how landfills work.

There’s plenty of land to use, too. Here’s another statistic:

If you packed all the municipal waste that the U.S. is likely to generate in the next 1,000 years into one spot, it would fit into an area 44 miles square and 120 feet deep. This will never happen, of course, but the point is that such a volume takes up just a tenth of a percent of our available land.

From Slate:

How much room can we possibly have for garbage in this country? When will the United States run out of landfill space?

Not for centuries. There are plenty of reasons to cut down on waste, but the amount of space left in the ground isn’t a pressing concern.

Why do we care about plastic bags going into landfills in particular, vs. any other garbage going into landfills?

[CarnalK]

Because they are a low hanging fruit. They’re very noticeable as a contributor to street litter, easily substituted with cloth bags, and pretty simple to slap a 5 cent charge.

[HeXen]

@John_Mace

Some things may seem obvious, but they aren’t. This is an EXTRA fee added on to the cost, not something already factored in.

So, at least 60% of fee is actually new a tax. This would be on top of the cost the retailer pays for the bags.

Wrong. My grandparents own a grocery store some 30 years now. Those costs were factored in a long time ago. Let’s not jump to ignorant conclusions and pull info out of our rears here. Unless you have evidence that some particular store never audited and analyzed what their outgoing costs were and decided to give away bags for free only to later decide to charge for them then your not doing yourself any favors because it’s likely they realized that they are not profiting what they used to so they needed to start charging…nothing is really free.

[bashere]

@Malthus

Not sure where this comes from. In Toronto, my understanding is that the 5 cents went to the retailer (when the fee existed).

The elegance of the plastic bag fee - Spacing Toronto | Spacing Toronto

Perhaps other Ontario municipalities did it differently.

Not…exactly (although close enough that this is a nitpick, rather than a correction): the fee was collected by the retailer, and was supposed to go to the environmental charity of their choice. One assumes the mayor at the time, David Miller, would have preferred WWF, but he did not advocate for any given charity.

Anecdotally, it seemed to cut down on the number of bags caught in trees. That said, PriceChopper (I think. Whichever grocery store I go to) already charge 5cents per bag, but gave away boxes for free. They continued to charge 5 cents, plus the fee.

I’m honestly baffled why no one at all complains about Price Chopper charging 5 cents, but when the city did, it was a huge deal.

Oh, and the really-very-thin bags that are used to hold meat and vegetables continued to be free; those are fine for picking up pet waste.

[Malthus]

@bashere

Not…exactly (although close enough that this is a nitpick, rather than a correction): the fee was collected by the retailer, and was supposed to go to the environmental charity of their choice. One assumes the mayor at the time, David Miller, would have preferred WWF, but he did not advocate for any given charity.

I can’t find a source that states this was an obligation. A lot of retailers gave money to charities, but this was not tied to bag “fees”.

In Toronto, more than seven months after the city-wide policy came into effect June 1, 2009, exactly how the money is being divvied up isn’t so transparent. According to the city’s bylaw, retailers get to keep the five cents and can decide how they want to use it.

And some large chains, though not legally compelled to do so, have extended the five-cent fee nationally.

“The money doesn’t come to us; it goes directly to retailers,” said Vince Sferrazza, director of policy and planning for Toronto’s waste management services. “And the city doesn’t have the authority to tell retailers how to spend their money.”

That comes as news to some consumers. “I never really thought about it,” said Lovenne Doucet, who was buying her groceries at a Loblaws and says she occasionally buys a plastic bag. “I just assumed the city takes it.”

Retailers say a portion of proceeds is being invested in environmental initiatives, but none would disclose how much profit they have made from the fees, nor specify how much of that has been allocated to charitable purposes.

Where are the plastic bag fees going?

The city had various plans:

Toronto wants stores to donate part of 5-cent bag fee to planting trees

[bashere]

@Malthus

I can’t find a source that states this was an obligation. A lot of retailers gave money to charities, but this was not tied to bag “fees”.

Where are the plastic bag fees going?

The city had various plans:

Toronto wants stores to donate part of 5-cent bag fee to planting trees

I’ll see if I can dig it up (I mean, you were quoting Spacing in the first place, and they are generally fairly accurate). There was a lot of talk about…everything given the amount of money involved, so it is entirely possible I misremembered.