# Why shouldn't the U.S. and other first world countries take a hardline stance on illegal immigration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622 "2015-08-12T03:16:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/21 "2015-08-12T14:02:04Z")
We shouldn’t take a hardline stance on illegal immigration because we’re not assholes and we can’t come up with any arguments in favor of it that haven’t been debunked thoroughly. > [@usedtobe](#): > > Answer: H1B’s who left the company holding their “Green Cards”. > Yes, I know they are no longer green in color. > Let me guess: They have recently been printing them on green stock again. What on earth are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/22 "2015-08-12T15:55:57Z")
I’m largely in agreement with Little Nemo, XT, and others that we should open our border more instead of closing them. It seems like it would solve some issues; besides, I get irritated when people who benefited from previously open borders now want to close them. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/23 "2015-08-12T16:13:21Z")
My biggest complaint about illegal immigration is the human carnage left behind, from people dying trying to cross the southwest dessert to employers paying less than minimum wage to employers simply not paying people at all, knowing the victims won’t go to the authorities for fear of deportation and/or jail. Whatever reduces the carnage gets my vote, and I suspect that won’t be “build a wall” but rather find ways to allow people to come here legally. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/24 "2015-08-12T17:08:46Z")
There’s a false dichotomy being drawn over immigration. One side is basically seen as being xenophonic and the other side is being seen as creating a haven for illegal activity. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. First, people act like illegal immigrants somehow “have it easy”. Sure, they probably get paid under the table and may avoid paying some income tax. But they don’t have access to many services, and there’s not exactly any sort of upward mobility in the sort of work they do. People don’t come to the US illegally for any reason other than desperation. And just gathering them up and shipping them out or building a wall is only addressing a symptom, and not the problem. Further, like it or not, but many parts of our economy more or less depend on immigration to be successful. Even a lot of out-of-work Americans aren’t willing to do the jobs that a lot of illegal immigrants are, for the pay they are. Why do difficult work for less than minimum wage? And if those people were paid minimum wage, we’d see price increases. After all, the life blood of what makes America what it is has been immigration. We have perhaps the most diverse population of any country, racially, ethnically, culturally, and that’s something that’s brought a lot of controversy, but I think it’s ultimately made us stronger. As such, I don’t think the issue is to take a harder stance against illegal immigration. I think the issue is to take a deeper look at a system that is currently just making things harder for illegal immigrants and America as a whole worse and see what we can do to make it better. For many illegal immigrants, the only illegal actions they’ve taken are related to their immigration. And the only reason they’re doing it is because the legal process is to arduous. But really, if that’s the only reason they’re illegal, and they’re working a job and otherwise contributing to society, I fail to see how that’s actually a bad thing. The other argument I hear is concerns about how some immigrants aren’t willing to assimilate, or they’re worried about non-Americans taking American jobs. Well, first, anyone that comes here may or may not be willing to assimilate; hell, even someone from another part of the country might not be willing to assimilate to the local culture. And for the latter part, if someone comes to America, lives here and works hard, they ARE and American. I know a ton of people that are here on long term visas, permanent residents or naturalized citizens; they’re American. So many people I’ve met who have been here for even just a few years are more like us than they are like their native country. So, no, it’s not about “going easy on illegals” that would be like saying we’re going easy on potheads by decriminalizing marijuana. Both are a waste of resources and causing harm everyone involved by enforcing it. Instead, we should focus on trying to make the legal immigration process easier and faster, but also more effective at catching immigrants that ARE criminals. And I think that’s doable if we stop worrying about the immigrants where their only crime is entering the country illegally. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/25 "2015-08-12T17:47:18Z")
Legal immigration takes too long, I think that’s the biggest hurdle. Why bother to wait 5, 10, 15 years if you can just cross a border tomorrow? And with some of these countries, their governments are happy for you to leave because it gets rid of the poor and they typically send back money to their former countries. I read a few places that says that legal immigration is about 1 million per year now, and illegal immigration maybe a third of that. Of the reasons I’ve seen that delay immigration, there really is only one important one that I would keep as a major criteria: crime. Right now, immigrants can be delayed because: - Immigration officials backed up with too many cases - Lost paperwork - Incorrect paperwork - Waiting for Visa or Green Card - Insufficient response to immigration official requesting documentation - Low employment quotas - Too many deportation cases backlog - Criminal background checks take too long I’m in favor of reducing or eliminating most of those requirements. Obviously systemic failures like lost paperwork will inhibit progress, but I do not believe low employment quotas or too many cases need to be a significant barrier. My ideal system would weigh heavily the criminal background check. Once you’re free and clear, we let you in with minimal hassle. You want citizenship? Are you a criminal? No? Well here you go, you’re a citizen, congrats. Divorce deportation cases from immigration cases, two sets of officials should be working on that, expand the rolls of immigration officials to accommodate the number of people trying to immigrate. Also, you hear about cases from people who try to seek asylum and our immigration officials being real dicks about crossing all the t’s and dotting all the i’s. I say if you’re from some 3rd world shithole and you have even a passing fear that you’re going to be in danger, then come on in. Gays living in places like Russia should have almost a free pass to come in here and evade being thrown in jail or killed. We should accept almost anyone that’s trying to escape some dictatorship, or extreme theocracy. We’re better than that and we want those people who think those places are nuts. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/26 "2015-08-12T20:35:16Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Contrary to popular belief, the U.S. still has a really generous _legal_ immigration policy compared to most countries in Europe, Australia and even some 3rd world countries yet The Left constantly criticizes that the U.S. and some European countries are becoming Draconian by asking people to have even basic documents and go through an official immigration process. > > Why is that? One of the most basic definitions of a nation is the right to control its own borders whether that country happens to be New Zealand or Yemen. It seems to me that people that are advocating for safe-havens for illegal immigrants are really just arguing for a backdoor approach to truly open borders in a disingenuous way. > > This is not a philosophical problem at all. Nations all over the world ranging from Sweden, The UK, France and even Mexico are having to deal with the tide of people spilling over their borders and those people have to be dealt with with in very real ways. > > What is the non fuzzy-headed solution to this widespread problem? > > For the record, I have nothing against most illegal immigrants individually. I have known and liked many of them personally but that is completely different from a guide that you can use to set national policies. I am asking about the latter. Shagnasty, I mostly agree with you: every country has a right to control its own borders. Where I would disagree, if we do, is that I think the vast majority of illegal immigrants are coming here to work. Work enriches our country. We may have a liberal immigration policy, but to whatever extent it prevents law-abiding people - even poor people, even especially poor people - from coming here to work, I’d argue it should be even more liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/27 "2015-08-12T20:35:40Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > And with some of these countries, their governments are happy for you to leave because it gets rid of the poor and they typically send back money to their former countries. What countries favor citizens leaving? My understanding is that countries don’t like it because the motivated, educated citizens are the ones most likely to immigrate, leaving unmotivated people behind. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/28 "2015-08-12T20:50:45Z")
I think Mexico isn’t all that unhappy about the arrangement they have now. Lots of poor people leaving, sending money back to Mexico from wages they’ve earned here. They do little to stop it and in the past politicians there have openly attacked the US’s immigration policy. If you’re looking for someone to quote verbatim that “We want our poor to leave and send back money”, I don’t think you’ll get that. But I’ve no doubt the current arrangement is favorable ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/29 "2015-08-12T20:51:53Z")
To echo **Merneith** , just go after the ones who are encouraging illegal immigration: the people who are offering illegal immigrants jobs. The immigrants come here for work- if the work dries up, they’ll stop coming. Oddly enough, this isn’t a popular suggestion for the Right. They’d rather just build a wall. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/30 "2015-08-12T21:01:09Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Oddly enough, this isn’t a popular suggestion for the Right. They’d rather just build a wall. Denying them jobs was Romney’s position. Self deportation, remember? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/31 "2015-08-12T21:10:01Z")
Well, sort of. Romney never actually spelled out how he would get people to self-deport, other than “denying them jobs.” He said something about “having a card that shows who’s here illegally,” and e-Verify… which is the system we already have. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/32 "2015-08-12T22:47:08Z")
It just occurred to me: It seems like those who want a wall (literal or figurative) are also the ones who dismiss global warming. How to convert them to ecologists: Point out that the Rio Grande is drying up and making it easier to forge across! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/33 "2015-08-12T22:51:01Z")
What would be the use? Promising to secure the border is inane. One may as well promise to ban UV radiation from falling on our beaches, or to stop the tide from rising. Sometimes the law has to adapt to realities it can manage but not perfectly control. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/34 "2015-08-12T23:09:20Z")
Should we have a national ID card, and cops who can stop you while you’re walking down the street and demand to see your papers? Cops in our country generally don’t have the right to detain and determine the immigration status of people who are walking down the street, not even if they’re brown-skinned and speaking Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/35 "2015-08-12T23:18:17Z")
Building a giant wall would be some nice Keynesian economic stimulation. Hard construction work though, out there in the scorching hot desert and scrublands. Would be tough to get American workers. Hey, I have an idea. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/36 "2015-08-13T07:00:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Similarly, utterly open borders is much more of a libertarian position than a Leftist position. Literally all the open borders people I know are leftist. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/37 "2015-08-13T09:19:31Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Literally all the open borders people I know are leftist. Ditto. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/38 "2015-08-13T09:23:54Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What makes you so sure that it’s even physically possible to secure a 1,954-mile border? Because it wouldn’t be that hard. What we lack is not the means to do it, but due to the unholy alliance between Dems and Reps on the issue, the will. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/39 "2015-08-13T09:25:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That is the clever part of **magellan01** ’s argument; the border can never be secure enough, so he never has to make any effort on the other parts of immigration reform. You assume that I, or people who advocate securing the border, do not want immigration. That is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/40 "2015-08-13T10:10:59Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > What countries favor citizens leaving? My understanding is that countries don’t like it because the motivated, educated citizens are the ones most likely to immigrate, leaving unmotivated people behind. The Phillipines. They derive tens of billions of dollars from remittances sent home by overseas-employed citizens every year. Only about a percentage point of their GDP, but that’s not to be sneezed at when you’re a developing country. Most of these workers are guest workers who probably come back eventually - but then, there’s nothing to stop an emigrant from deciding to return home either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622.md?page=3)