# Why shouldn't the U.S. and other first world countries take a hardline stance on illegal immigration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622 "2015-08-12T03:16:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/61 "2015-08-13T15:39:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > My evidence is walls and fences the world over. As far as making them secure, we can make them as secure as we desire, just as we can with buildings—you know, those things with four walls and a roof? Any insistence otherwise ignores millions of examples. Go visit Fort Knox, your state prison, The White House, Tiffany’s. You really should get out and see all the walls that have been built. Pretty cool. Buckets are pretty cool, too. Dude, people break into buildings — you know, those things with four walls and a roof? – all the time. And people escape prisons all the time. And all the things you listed there are vastly, significantly smaller than our border with Mexico. There aren’t enough people in the military to guard that wall to the same standards as the White House or Fort Knox. Are you serious with that? You think we can make our entire southern border as impenetrable as Fort Knox? Cheaply and easily?? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/62 "2015-08-13T15:40:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > My evidence is walls and fences the world over. As far as making them secure, we can make them as secure as we desire, just as we can with buildings—you know, those things with four walls and a roof? Any insistence otherwise ignores millions of examples. Go visit Fort Knox, your state prison, The White House, Tiffany’s. You really should get out and see all the walls that have been built. Pretty cool. Buckets are pretty cool, too. Okay, that’s a good point. Say, where can I visit a 2,000 mile Tiffany store? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/63 "2015-08-13T15:42:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > My evidence is walls and fences the world over. As far as making them secure, we can make them as secure as we desire, just as we can with buildings—you know, those things with four walls and a roof? Any insistence otherwise ignores millions of examples. **Go visit Fort Knox, your state prison, The White House, Tiffany’s**. You really should get out and see all the walls that have been built. Pretty cool. Buckets are pretty cool, too. Can that level of security be maintained for almost 2,000 miles? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/64 "2015-08-13T15:54:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Nonsense. Walls and fences are not fantastical notions. Look what’s around the white house. Or Disneyworld. They exist. And they work. I love Ann Coulter’s analogy. “Saying walls don’t work is like saying buckets don’t work.” We know we can build a wall, a really good wall. The question is whether we have the will to make it really secure. Do you deny that this is true? > > Thinking that the workability of a large scale government project is dependent upon someone on a message board being able to show the costs is The Onion-level absurdity. I don’t need a cost model to know that a fence, a wall, a minefield, a no-man’s-land patrolled by hardened stone killers with shoot-to-kill orders, a free-fire kill zone patrolled by automata, whatever, is only throwing good money after bad. Most of the USA’s borders are actually bodies of water; shall we mine the Gulf of Mexico and the seas off California? The land border has and will have openings. Closing the desert at absurd expense would move the illicit migrant paths back to the more hospitable climes that migrants used to follow; they only go through the desert now because it was a natural barrier too expensive to secure and deemed to difficult to cross. If you could physically secure it, well, so what? Forged papers will command a high price, and supply will try to meet demand. No, you will not, you will never, carpentry your way out of it, but you can make life pointlessly harder for law-abiding citizens with good reason to cross the border if you try. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/65 "2015-08-13T15:56:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Now, back in the U.S. of Reality, of course the government can do these things. And of course they can build a wall and secure the border. What in the world makes you think that they can’t? Now if you believe, as some others evidently do, that “securing the border” means guaranteeing that zero—0—people will ever sneak through, then I suggest you save us both time and look up both the Excluded Middle fallacy and No True Scotsman. What, in your view, would count as “securing the border”? What measurements would you look for to establish whether or not the border was secure? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/66 "2015-08-13T15:57:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > my evidence is walls and fences the world over. As far as making them secure, we can make them as secure as we desire, just as we can with buildings—you know, those things with four walls and a roof? Any insistence otherwise ignores millions of examples. Go visit fort knox, your state prison, the white house, tiffany’s. You really should get out and see all the walls that have been built. Pretty cool. Buckets are pretty cool, too. you have no sense of scale. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/67 "2015-08-13T17:04:33Z")
Hey magellan, how about we build a thousand foot tall wall that’s electrified, and with every 10 feet patrolled by a vicious dog and armed border patrol agent? Since your logic is that we can put a fence around the White House, then this is obviously possible. We can make a fence 1 foot tall, so 1000 feet is certainly possible. And we can electrify a small fence, so a 2000 mile one is also possible. And we certainly have enough people and dogs to patrol. So tell me, why are you so soft on illegal immigration and love illegals so much that you won’t crack down on the border even more? Why won’t you won’t build a 2000 feet tall fence that’s both electrified AND poisoned, patrolled by 10 men every 10 feet and 5 dogs and an ornery cow? Why are you so against securing the border? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/68 "2015-08-13T17:05:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > My evidence is walls and fences the world over. As far as making them secure, we can make them as secure as we desire, just as we can with buildings—you know, those things with four walls and a roof? Any insistence otherwise ignores millions of examples. Go visit Fort Knox, your state prison, The White House, Tiffany’s. You really should get out and see all the walls that have been built. Pretty cool. Buckets are pretty cool, too. While I sort of agree with you (that we could make it secure if we really wanted to) do you have any estimate on how much it would cost? I contend that a wall as secure as you want it would cost way more than any damage you think immigrants are causing. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/69 "2015-08-13T17:29:55Z")
Thing is, only a fraction of illegal immigrants came to the United States by sneaking across the border. A very large fraction come here by walking through the checkpoints at airports and border crossings legally, and then not going back home when their visa runs out. Build an impermeable fence, and people just stop trying to cross the border over or under the fence. Instead they go around the fence. There’s no land border between Italy and North Africa, yet Italy is being swamped by migrants from North Africa. Is Italy supposed to build a fence across the Mediterranean? To really combat illegal immigration we need a lot more than “securing the borders”. We need a police state where there are checkpoints to verify the immigration status of everyone all over. Want to buy groceries? Verify your immigration status. Want to walk down the sidewalk? Verify your immigration status. Want to see a doctor, go to school, visit a library, go to a concert, buy, sell, do anything? Verify your immigration status. Every doorway is locked, unless you can prove your immigration status. In other words, Soviet Union/Chinese style internal passports issued by the Federal Government, for everyone, checked regularly. Even for white people. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/70 "2015-08-13T18:17:00Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Yes. That is what I am saying. The border is not Fort Knox. You can’t make the border secure. It is not possible. There is no wall that can prevent a motivated immigrant or their smugglers from breaching with a tunnel or a ladder. Not high enough, not deep enough, not long enough, not armed enough. We have built walls before, and they failed. Your idea is laughable. _Ain’t no mountain high enough, Ain’t no river long enough To keep them from gettin’ in here!_ ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/71 "2015-08-13T18:40:29Z")
There have been migrant routes where as many as 1 in 10 people die. And people still come. In Australia, they spent years where they put migrants arriving by sea in remote island prison camps indefinitely without trial. They still arrive. People migrate into Yemen. Yemen of all places. Some migrants take birth control when crossing the Red Sea, so that they don’t get pregnant when they are raped during the voyage. People without hope, especially young people with no hope of living safe and productive lives, will inevitably chase even small slivers of hope, at basically any risk. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/72 "2015-08-13T19:58:24Z")
Has there ever been a completely secured border on this planet? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/73 "2015-08-13T20:01:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Now, back in the U.S. of Reality, of course the government can do these things. And of course they can build a wall and secure the border. What in the world makes you think that they can’t? Now if you believe, as some others evidently do, that “securing the border” means guaranteeing that zero—0—people will ever sneak through, then I suggest you save us both time and look up both the Excluded Middle fallacy and No True Scotsman. How about \*\* you\*\* define “securing the border.” You’re claiming it’s possible. So tell us precisely what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/74 "2015-08-13T20:07:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Nonsense. Walls and fences are not fantastical notions. Look what’s around the white house. Or Disneyworld. They exist. And they work. I’m actually curious about this. Could you cite up some numbers about how many people manage to get past walls at the White House and Disneyworld vs. how many are thwarted by them? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/75 "2015-08-13T20:13:17Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Thing is, only a fraction of illegal immigrants came to the United States by sneaking across the border. A very large fraction come here by walking through the checkpoints at airports and border crossings legally, and then not going back home when their visa runs out. I think am impermeable border still has value, even if we have lots of overstays. Or even if we had an extremely liberal immigration policy. There are bad people out there. So at least this way we know who has come in. No argument from me about your other points. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/76 "2015-08-13T20:16:56Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Should we have a national ID card, and cops who can stop you while you’re walking down the street and demand to see your papers? I suspect a lot more people would get stopped for looking Mexican than for looking Canadian. ---
**Author:** ![scruffycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scruffycat/32/200_2.png) [@scruffycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scruffycat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/77 "2015-08-13T20:49:45Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Has there ever been a completely secured border on this planet? The closest must be the DMZ between the two Koreas. Ignoring army incursions it’s been breached a couple of times by civilians that I can find. And that’s what 150 miles long? And very heavily guarded. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/78 "2015-08-13T20:53:02Z")
Guarded by guys who won’t hesitate to shoot to kill. Plus minefields, machine gun emplacements, artillery… ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/79 "2015-08-13T22:00:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I suspect a lot more people would get stopped for looking Mexican than for looking Canadian. “The reason I stopped you was the strong odor of maple syrup. How many pancakes have you eaten today?” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/80 "2015-08-13T22:36:59Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Has there ever been a completely secured border on this planet? The Berlin Wall comes about as close as you could want. Quick Googling shows that cost about 10.5 million (in 2014 dollars) to build the last phase of it in 1980 and was about 90 miles long. I figure it would cost a little more per mile to build in the middle of the desert. Plus I am sure the boys on the border would like some shiny toys at the same time such as drones, infrared cameras and assorted sensors. Probably have to have some living quarters in there for the more remote sections. Seems to me it would be a pretty pricey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622.md?page=5)