# Why shouldn't the U.S. and other first world countries take a hardline stance on illegal immigration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622 "2015-08-12T03:16:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/101 "2015-08-14T19:52:34Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Once again, everybody ignores the fact that illegal immigration is driven by the underground economy. Most illegals are paid a small amount (from which taxes are deducted), but also paid cash under the table. The social problems generated by illegal immigration are now becoming apparent-the MS-13 gang is well established in many cities, and local American teens cannot get low level jobs (they are taken by illegals), i am also concerned about the massive number so muslims being brought in-these people do not assimilate, and are likely to be s burden for generations. Are you saying that teens can’t get jobs in fast food because illegals have them? Domestic help and gardeners and the like get paid in cash - not anything new. But I’d like to see a cite about big business doing that. Since they have to pay minimum wage anyway, and these people aren’t going to get a lot more, why pay extra cash under the table. And why risk a federal rap by not doing withholding? More likely they don’t look too hard at the bogus social security numbers they get. But I guess picking potatoes counts as participating in the underground economy, doesn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/102 "2015-08-14T20:13:25Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > To help Magellan out, here’s a [cite](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/21/19062298-price-tag-for-700-miles-of-border-fencing-high-and-hard-to-pin-down?lite). > > 670 miles of [single layer fencing](http://www.lawatchdog.com/PalominasBorderFence9409.html)cost 2.5 billion, so about 7.2 billion to cover the border. Now they are thinking that 2 layers of fencing is probably required so that bumps it up to 14.4 billion dollars. Annual maintenance will probably come to around 5% of this on the low end so lets say $720 million a year. Even that setup can be breached simply by using a ladder, or an acetylene torch, or explosives, to breach the wall, so you are going to want to have this thing patrolled. > > According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_border#U.S..E2.80.93Mexico_border_enforcement) the 20,000 agents we currently have control only about 700 miles of border. To increase that to the full border is going to require another 35,000 people. Border agents cost about [171,400 each per year](http://www.wola.org/commentary/what_is_the_real_cost_of_an_additional_20000_border_patrol_agents), so around an additional 6 billion per year in staffing. > > So in other words a somewhat more secure border is looking at costing around 14.4 billion dollars plus another 6.7 billion a year. Again from wikipedia, there are probably around 208,000 illegal crossings per year. Even if we assume that this will be perfect in stopping illegal crossings (it won’t) That comes to an initial outlay of $101,000 initial outlay for each person crossing the border in the first year, with an additional cost of $32,000 per person stopped per year after that. > > This seems a pretty big price to pay to stop a brown person from picking strawberries at $6 an hour. We spend $600 billion in national defense every year already don’t we? $20 billion is a small fraction of that; in fact we could easily divert $20 billion of military spending towards this. Strange that we have a $787 billion stimulus, a $600 billion defense budget, but suddenly balk at $20 billion. I suspect the real motive isn’t finance - it’s a veiled resistance to tougher border security. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/103 "2015-08-14T20:39:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. That can be taken care of eminent domain. And…aren’t those the same people who are clamoring for the fence? It would be high irony to see people fight for the wall and then drag their feet in an attempt to make more money. > [@Velocity](#): > > Strange that we have a $787 billion stimulus, a $600 billion defense budget, but suddenly balk at $20 billion. I suspect the real motive isn’t finance - it’s a veiled resistance to tougher border security. As Buck’s excellent numbers show, it’s not just the total dollar value, it’s also the amount of money spent per illegal alien. It hardly seems economically rational. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/104 "2015-08-14T20:45:23Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > And…aren’t those the same people who are clamoring for the fence? It would be high irony to see people fight for the wall and then drag their feet in an attempt to make more money. > As Buck’s excellent numbers show, it’s not just the total dollar value, it’s also the amount of money spent per illegal alien. It hardly seems economically rational. I’ll bet it would be cheaper to prosecute the job creators. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/105 "2015-08-14T20:50:17Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > As Buck’s excellent numbers show, it’s not just the total dollar value, it’s also the amount of money spent per illegal alien. It hardly seems economically rational. The government does plenty of things that are not economically rational. The world is not economically rational; many decisions are made out of emotional reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/106 "2015-08-14T20:53:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The government does plenty of things that are not economically rational. The world is not economically rational; many decisions are made out of emotional reasons. Sure, and that’s why government-run programs are often lousy. We don’t need to make it worse, do we? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/107 "2015-08-14T21:31:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The government does plenty of things that are not economically rational. The world is not economically rational; many decisions are made out of emotional reasons. But the argument being made isn’t being presented as an emotional one. It’s argued that the economic damage (drain on public programs, jobs lost) is worth building a wall to stop. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/108 "2015-08-14T22:43:15Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Thing is, only a fraction of illegal immigrants came to the United States by sneaking across the border. What fraction? [62%](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Present-day_countries_of_origin) of illegal immigrants in the US are Mexican, and we don’t give out many visa to Mexican nationals. Most of the illegal immigrants from central and south America - which look to account for another 14% - come through the US/Mexican boarder too, do they not? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/109 "2015-08-15T11:27:38Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > What fraction? [62%](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Present-day_countries_of_origin) of illegal immigrants in the US are Mexican You do know that’s only an estimate, right? And that there’s no way to measure it accurately? > [@](#): > > and we don’t give out many visa to Mexican nationals. Um, yes we do. [Page 41.](http://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/Statistics/Non-Immigrant-Statistics/NIVDetailTables/FY14NIVDetailTable.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/110 "2015-08-15T12:08:31Z")
IIRC ~40% of illegal immigrants arrived legally and did not sneak across the border. I expect that to vary by country of origin, but I haven’t seen data. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/111 "2015-08-15T14:10:51Z")
No one has mentioned the other downside of a really effective wall. It also keeps people in. As a Jew, that’s a little unnerving. I don’t want to live in a police state. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/112 "2015-08-15T16:51:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Everyone knows it can be made more secure. The problem is that **magellan** and people like him refuse to consider any non-wall-related immigration reform until it is “totally secure.” Since he won’t even attempt to demonstrate what that will cost, it’s hard to _be_ serious about the issue. Untrue. First, your wanting my position to be that a secure border means that absolutely no one ever would eve able to sneak in is false. I’ve explained this already, yet you desperately cling to that fabrication. Also, as I’ve stated many times on this board, I’m all for going after employers. Today. And I don’t mean just fining them, I mean putting them in orange jumpsuits. Today. The point is to stop the flow of illegal immigration before we deal with anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/113 "2015-08-15T16:57:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The point is to stop the flow of illegal immigration before we deal with anything else. How many illegal entries per years equates to stopping the flow? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/114 "2015-08-15T17:00:42Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How many illegal entries per years equates to stopping the flow? Depends. How are you counting them? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/115 "2015-08-15T17:05:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Depends. How are you counting them? No, you first. If you want me to agree with your plan to secure the border before doing anything else, I demand that you tell me where that line is. If you try to be ambiguous, I will oppose you with vigor and insist on immigration reform now. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/116 "2015-08-16T00:17:27Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No, you first. If you want me to agree with your plan to secure the border before doing anything else, I demand that you tell me where that line is. If you try to be ambiguous, I will oppose you with vigor and insist on immigration reform now. You asked me for a number. I( asked what metric you’d like me to use in arriving at that number. I’m seeking clarification on your question. Nice try though. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/117 "2015-08-16T00:50:30Z")
OK, fine: How many undocumented alien residents is “too many”? How many is acceptable? How many illicit border crossings a year is acceptable to consider the border “secure,” or is there another metric? Alternatively, how much money do you want injected into the economy via border security spending to stop whining? ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/118 "2015-08-16T00:57:10Z")
As a citizen of one of the “other first world countries” (Ireland), please allow me a moment to distract the rest of you from your interminable Mexican Wall analysis. Here in Europe, we are facing what Drudge gleefully highlights as [“Europe facing worst crisis since WWII”](http://news.yahoo.com/least-40-migrants-dead-mediterranean-sinking-102241286.html;_ylt=AwrC1jFecs9VYlsAWB7QtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTByMHZ0NG9yBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM3BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--). Personally, I think that Europeans have every right to determinedly keep out illegal immigrants. We also have the right to set the conditions by which we allow those already admitted to stay. I agree with Czech President Milos Zeman: "[“If you do not like it, just go away.”](http://www.praguemonitor.com/2015/08/03/zeman-refugees-should-respect-czech-rules-or-leave). I’d also note that [Hungary](http://www.smh.com.au/world/iron-curtain-bewildered-migrants-confronted-with-new-hungaryserbia-border-fence-20150717-giee4q.html) is busy building its own analogue to a Rio Grande fence. What say you, especially our other Euro-Dopers? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/119 "2015-08-16T01:03:35Z")
I read these stories about masses of refugees streaming through Turkey, and I think it’s cute that you think you have a say. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/120 "2015-08-16T01:11:25Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I read these stories about masses of refugees streaming through Turkey, and I think it’s cute that you think you have a say. Beg pardon? Turkey is not an EU member state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622.md?page=7)