# Why shouldn't the U.S. and other first world countries take a hardline stance on illegal immigration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622 "2015-08-12T03:16:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/161 "2015-08-18T05:56:14Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > b) modern liberalism is premised on the principle of non-discrimination and universalism. Borders are seen as discriminatory and racist (for European countries anyway). The left (not liberal) position is similar to this, but more accurately Marxism is premised on the principle of working class unity. Borders are a means of dividing the working class, by saying that only some workers (those with a particular nationality) are entitled to labour protections. They also pit workers against each other, as can be seen by the nativism of _some_ labour unions (as Learjeff referred to above). ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/162 "2015-08-18T06:01:25Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > All the ones that European citizens don’t decide to admit and offer benefits, employment opportunities, etc., yes. Good luck with that. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > You seem to be saying that there is nothing to be done to prevent this recent wave of migrants. Do you think that this is a state of affairs which can be maintained indefinitely? I think it’s going to get worse until a more sensible approach is taken. Which probably means it’s just going to get worse. > [@](#): > > Of course, in the nations most directly affected by these migrants, the rates are _much_ higher (Spain - 22.7%, Italy - 12.4%, Greece - 25.6%). Yes, which makes the Dublin Regulation (allowing return of asylum seekers to their first EU state of entry) all the more impractical and unworkable. Hopefully this will mark the beginning of the end of it - [cracks are already showing](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/24/the-boat-is-full-hungary-suspends-eu-asylum-rule-blaming-influx-of-migrants). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/163 "2015-08-18T06:01:27Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Let’s hope they can be closed! The thing is that unlike other groups, after four generations that hasn’t occurred. So wouldn’t it make sense to focus on high skill immigration in the meantime until gaps do in fact improve. > > In the context of the question asked by the original poster though, there is no good reason why the US should not be able to enforce border control like other countries. Of course your prejudging of a group of people leads you to miss the point of the study, it is necessary that the governments do properly fund education and train the educators to make that gap disappear just as others did in other countries, not much about recommending deportation or preventing immigration in that study. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/164 "2015-08-18T07:46:22Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Of course your prejudging of a group of people leads you to miss the point of the study, it is necessary that the governments do properly fund education and train the educators to make that gap disappear just as others did in other countries, not much about recommending deportation or preventing immigration in that study. Indeed - train educators to offer improved education. This isn’t mutually exclusive with enforcing immigration laws! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/165 "2015-08-18T08:14:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I for one am glad that every kid goes to school, even if I’m paying for it. Okay. But wouldn’t you rather not [ay of the kid wasn’t here in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/166 "2015-08-18T08:24:53Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Europe and the US are also in somewhat different boats here, because most European countries (unlike the United States) are at least partially ethnostates, and because a large part of their immigrants are Muslims, and much harder to integrate into European society. > > For what it’s worth, I’m on the hard Left, but also strongly anti-immigration. It is wonderful the assertions about Europe. but it is from the hard left and the hard right here I have learned a great deal of sympathy of the desire of the jewish people for Israel. the echoes of the anti semite language of the discourses of the early 20th century used about jews that now is 100% recycled in form and tone and content for hte muslims tells me they are right not to trust the end of that history. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/167 "2015-08-18T10:00:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I do agree about the rich getting the benefit but being unwilling to pay full wages. My ex-step-sister is an example. She lives in La Jolla, and her very nice housekeeper was clearly undocumented. (The housekeeper eventually went back to Mexico to work in a factory because it was better than working for my step-sister and I don’t blame her.) I want to discuss housekeepers and nannies. I live in Kansas City and I know a woman who runs a nanny business. One thing she told me is that people moving to Kansas City from California are surprised at how much more a nanny and housekeeper costs here compared to California because in California they use mostly cheap illegals who not only work for less pay, they avoid employer taxes by paying in cash whereas in Kansas City where illegals are fewer, they use Americans and thus have to pay higher wages plus all the employer taxes (ex. social security, workmans comp). Now thats been changing over the years as the number of illegals in KC has grown. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/168 "2015-08-18T13:48:31Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Exactly. The wealthy have been able to privatize the benefits, but externalize the costs. We the taxpayers end up footing the bill. For most of the marginally literate poor people who come as immigrants, there’s nothing they can do that will allow them to earn out their cost to society. If we’re talking about their kids, the question is whether their CHILDREN can “earn out their cost to society,” which of course they can. If they’re costing money to educate, they are getting an education, and over the course of a working career will, in fact, produce lots. People always make the error of thinking an education is a cost incurred by the parent. An education is more logically regarded as a cost incurred _by the child_. The child then pays it back when they convert the education into productivity and social contribution. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622/169 "2015-08-18T14:03:48Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It is wonderful the assertions about Europe. > > but it is from the hard left and the hard right here I have learned a great deal of sympathy of the desire of the jewish people for Israel. > > the echoes of the anti semite language of the discourses of the early 20th century used about jews that now is 100% recycled in form and tone and content for hte muslims tells me they are right not to trust the end of that history. This is why Jews in the US are so active in working against racism; once you accept the premise that it’s okay to discriminate against one group, it soon becomes okay to discriminate against lots of them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-the-u-s-and-other-first-world-countries-take-a-hardline-stance-on-illegal-immigration/727622.md?page=8)