We shouldn’t take a hardline stance on illegal immigration because we’re not assholes and we can’t come up with any arguments in favor of it that haven’t been debunked thoroughly.
What on earth are you talking about?
Why shouldn't the U.S. and other first world countries take a hardline stance on illegal immigration
I’m largely in agreement with Little Nemo, XT, and others that we should open our border more instead of closing them. It seems like it would solve some issues; besides, I get irritated when people who benefited from previously open borders now want to close them.
My biggest complaint about illegal immigration is the human carnage left behind, from people dying trying to cross the southwest dessert to employers paying less than minimum wage to employers simply not paying people at all, knowing the victims won’t go to the authorities for fear of deportation and/or jail.
Whatever reduces the carnage gets my vote, and I suspect that won’t be “build a wall” but rather find ways to allow people to come here legally.
There’s a false dichotomy being drawn over immigration. One side is basically seen as being xenophonic and the other side is being seen as creating a haven for illegal activity. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
First, people act like illegal immigrants somehow “have it easy”. Sure, they probably get paid under the table and may avoid paying some income tax. But they don’t have access to many services, and there’s not exactly any sort of upward mobility in the sort of work they do. People don’t come to the US illegally for any reason other than desperation. And just gathering them up and shipping them out or building a wall is only addressing a symptom, and not the problem.
Further, like it or not, but many parts of our economy more or less depend on immigration to be successful. Even a lot of out-of-work Americans aren’t willing to do the jobs that a lot of illegal immigrants are, for the pay they are. Why do difficult work for less than minimum wage? And if those people were paid minimum wage, we’d see price increases.
After all, the life blood of what makes America what it is has been immigration. We have perhaps the most diverse population of any country, racially, ethnically, culturally, and that’s something that’s brought a lot of controversy, but I think it’s ultimately made us stronger.
As such, I don’t think the issue is to take a harder stance against illegal immigration. I think the issue is to take a deeper look at a system that is currently just making things harder for illegal immigrants and America as a whole worse and see what we can do to make it better. For many illegal immigrants, the only illegal actions they’ve taken are related to their immigration. And the only reason they’re doing it is because the legal process is to arduous. But really, if that’s the only reason they’re illegal, and they’re working a job and otherwise contributing to society, I fail to see how that’s actually a bad thing.
The other argument I hear is concerns about how some immigrants aren’t willing to assimilate, or they’re worried about non-Americans taking American jobs. Well, first, anyone that comes here may or may not be willing to assimilate; hell, even someone from another part of the country might not be willing to assimilate to the local culture. And for the latter part, if someone comes to America, lives here and works hard, they ARE and American. I know a ton of people that are here on long term visas, permanent residents or naturalized citizens; they’re American. So many people I’ve met who have been here for even just a few years are more like us than they are like their native country.
So, no, it’s not about “going easy on illegals” that would be like saying we’re going easy on potheads by decriminalizing marijuana. Both are a waste of resources and causing harm everyone involved by enforcing it. Instead, we should focus on trying to make the legal immigration process easier and faster, but also more effective at catching immigrants that ARE criminals. And I think that’s doable if we stop worrying about the immigrants where their only crime is entering the country illegally.
Legal immigration takes too long, I think that’s the biggest hurdle. Why bother to wait 5, 10, 15 years if you can just cross a border tomorrow? And with some of these countries, their governments are happy for you to leave because it gets rid of the poor and they typically send back money to their former countries.
I read a few places that says that legal immigration is about 1 million per year now, and illegal immigration maybe a third of that. Of the reasons I’ve seen that delay immigration, there really is only one important one that I would keep as a major criteria: crime. Right now, immigrants can be delayed because:
- Immigration officials backed up with too many cases
- Lost paperwork
- Incorrect paperwork
- Waiting for Visa or Green Card
- Insufficient response to immigration official requesting documentation
- Low employment quotas
- Too many deportation cases backlog
- Criminal background checks take too long
I’m in favor of reducing or eliminating most of those requirements. Obviously systemic failures like lost paperwork will inhibit progress, but I do not believe low employment quotas or too many cases need to be a significant barrier. My ideal system would weigh heavily the criminal background check. Once you’re free and clear, we let you in with minimal hassle. You want citizenship? Are you a criminal? No? Well here you go, you’re a citizen, congrats. Divorce deportation cases from immigration cases, two sets of officials should be working on that, expand the rolls of immigration officials to accommodate the number of people trying to immigrate.
Also, you hear about cases from people who try to seek asylum and our immigration officials being real dicks about crossing all the t’s and dotting all the i’s. I say if you’re from some 3rd world shithole and you have even a passing fear that you’re going to be in danger, then come on in. Gays living in places like Russia should have almost a free pass to come in here and evade being thrown in jail or killed. We should accept almost anyone that’s trying to escape some dictatorship, or extreme theocracy. We’re better than that and we want those people who think those places are nuts.
Shagnasty, I mostly agree with you: every country has a right to control its own borders.
Where I would disagree, if we do, is that I think the vast majority of illegal immigrants are coming here to work. Work enriches our country. We may have a liberal immigration policy, but to whatever extent it prevents law-abiding people - even poor people, even especially poor people - from coming here to work, I’d argue it should be even more liberal.
What countries favor citizens leaving? My understanding is that countries don’t like it because the motivated, educated citizens are the ones most likely to immigrate, leaving unmotivated people behind.
I think Mexico isn’t all that unhappy about the arrangement they have now. Lots of poor people leaving, sending money back to Mexico from wages they’ve earned here. They do little to stop it and in the past politicians there have openly attacked the US’s immigration policy. If you’re looking for someone to quote verbatim that “We want our poor to leave and send back money”, I don’t think you’ll get that. But I’ve no doubt the current arrangement is favorable
To echo Merneith, just go after the ones who are encouraging illegal immigration: the people who are offering illegal immigrants jobs. The immigrants come here for work- if the work dries up, they’ll stop coming.
Oddly enough, this isn’t a popular suggestion for the Right. They’d rather just build a wall.
Denying them jobs was Romney’s position. Self deportation, remember?
Well, sort of. Romney never actually spelled out how he would get people to self-deport, other than “denying them jobs.” He said something about “having a card that shows who’s here illegally,” and e-Verify… which is the system we already have.
It just occurred to me:
It seems like those who want a wall (literal or figurative) are also the ones who dismiss global warming.
How to convert them to ecologists: Point out that the Rio Grande is drying up and making it easier to forge across!
What would be the use?
Promising to secure the border is inane. One may as well promise to ban UV radiation from falling on our beaches, or to stop the tide from rising. Sometimes the law has to adapt to realities it can manage but not perfectly control.
Should we have a national ID card, and cops who can stop you while you’re walking down the street and demand to see your papers?
Cops in our country generally don’t have the right to detain and determine the immigration status of people who are walking down the street, not even if they’re brown-skinned and speaking Spanish.
Building a giant wall would be some nice Keynesian economic stimulation. Hard construction work though, out there in the scorching hot desert and scrublands. Would be tough to get American workers. Hey, I have an idea.
Literally all the open borders people I know are leftist.
Ditto.
Because it wouldn’t be that hard. What we lack is not the means to do it, but due to the unholy alliance between Dems and Reps on the issue, the will.
You assume that I, or people who advocate securing the border, do not want immigration. That is not the case.
The Phillipines. They derive tens of billions of dollars from remittances sent home by overseas-employed citizens every year. Only about a percentage point of their GDP, but that’s not to be sneezed at when you’re a developing country.
Most of these workers are guest workers who probably come back eventually - but then, there’s nothing to stop an emigrant from deciding to return home either.