Why shouldn't voting be mandatory in the good ol' US of A

OK. Lets not state the obvious about freedom anymore. gr8rguy now says he understands this. :slight_smile:

Points to the argument:

1) Mandatory democracy leads to a truer representation “of the people”.
If you think that some people should not be represented, well there is no arguing this point. As an extreme - in some countries convicts and people of certain ethnic backgrounds are not allowed to vote. OK some people think this is a good thing - I dont.
2) Truer representation of the will of all the people in a society is good for the society.
I dont have any evidence for this - hence GD. By everyone being represented then the government acts for all people, not just the ones who are most likely to vote. An analogy is immunisation. Children are immunised to protect them as a group. If someone is too lazy, or thinks its an infengement on their freedom to have the child immunised, then not immunising may not affect the child. However if enough people think like this then the health of the child is at risk.
3) The freedom relenquished for this benefit is trivial compared to the benefit.
As akennet said this is the crux of the argument. It comes down to freedom versus benefit. Benefit outweighs a trivial reliquishment of freedom, that in turn leads to greater freedom in the long run.

Everyone should be allowed to vote, and I wouldn’t dispute this at all. Giving me the opportunity to vote allows me to express my views, and thus my contribution to the collective “will of the people.”

But that’s not what mandatory voting does, is it? It seems to me that by forcing people to vote you are denying them a particular means of expressing their will. Sure, I can go to the polling station and turn in a blank piece of paper or something, but I’m not seeing how this benefits society any more than does me refusing to go to the polling station to begin with, at least when everyone who feels as I do is forced to do the same. So I guess I’m not seeing how forcing people to participate in the voting process gives any more accurate a representation of the “will of the people” than does allowing them to participate or not as they see fit.

Eh, I dunno about this, actually. I know this sounds terribly elitist and everything, but people as a group can be rather impressively stupid. That’s one of the things we have to accept with democracy, and it’s something I’m happy to live with, but I’m not prepared to suggest that society taken as a whole even knows what’s best for it, let alone that society as a whole is willing to accept painful and unpleasant things even if those things are best for it.

This is rather far afield, of course, and is just as much an issue whether voting is mandatory or not. And in any event, while truer representation of the “will of the people” may at times be harmful for society, this is, as I said, a risk one should accept. But it is a risk.

antechinus, “Government of the people, by the people, for the people” is a wonderful sentiment but it is a slogan, not statute. “The point” of the US Constitution is NOT mass democracy. It’s the creation of limited, decentralized, responsible government, the protection of individual liberty and property rights, and the respect of Rule of Law. Now, if the way to best achieve that is maximum-sampling democracy, that is a question of policy. It’s not inherent in the system itself.

You ask, how can one do a bad job voting?

In my state, we have ballots with multiple offices being voted on, and multiple propositions (proposed laws, bond issues, etc).

I do read the papers, etc, and consider myself reasonably well informed. I vote on all the items where I (a) think I know enough, and (b) am concerned. Some of the items I think are very important.

The ‘not sufficient data’ and ‘not concerned’ items I leave to the voters who do know or care. Or who swallow the TV commercials, sigh.

A fraction of other voters must also do this, as the more obscure items on the ballot receive fewer total votes than the headliners.

But then after the election, there are always people saying, “Oh, aren’t you supposed to vote on every line?”, or, “Oh, I voted against that because the question was too long to read”, or “I voted for that because I’m against lawyers”.

The proportion of the blind ignorant is undoubtedly enough to swing the results in many cases, and: Assuming informed votors would choose a beneficial result, and uninformed votors choose a random result, the uninformed bring results detrimental to the voters.

All of these took the trouble to register and knew they were going to vote, but didn’t see a reason to take it seriously.

So I prefer our system of the minor obstacles of registering and laziness keeping some from the polls. But having read the discussion here, I have come to think that it would be perfectly workable to have compulsory voting with a minor punishment, and with blank ballots allowed.

MaryEFoo I don’t understand your point. If the uninformed vote randomly then all results are skewed leaving them at the same ratio they had in the beginning.

Well, dodgy voting machines was one of the problems, but a major problem was that some counties had a confusing ballot (the “butterfly” ballot). The way it was designed, it led to some people voting for a candidate different than the one they wanted.

I just don’t understand the point of compulsory voting. If I don’t want to vote, if I don’t believe in voting, if I think all the candidates are equally bad, or if I don’t care who wins, why should I have to? And if I’m just going to show up and submit an invalid ballot, what’s the point in that?

Bloody hampsters ate my reply. Take two …

I agree that people are on a whole stupid. The average IQ is only about 100. Sad but true. Reason a lot of us read this board is that there are smarter-than-average people posting. But …

smart people also dont vote (too lazy, dont think it will make an impact or busy doing something else). They are disfranchising themselves and letting us all down.

Instead of disfranchising the ignorant as well, it is better to fight ignorance. Another incentive for fighting ignorance is that the ignorant have a vote, equal to that of the informed.

So, there are all sorts of biases going on in voluntary voting, compulsory voting levels all these biases out.

Yes, “Government of the people, by the people, for the people” is a wonderful sentiment. It is also the definition of democracy.

I am not arguing that the US Constitution requires full democracy. I know it only enforces a limited form of democracy.

I am arguing that it would be better for the USA if the USA enforced a full democracy.

The point isnt to force these people to submit an invalid vote. There are only a small fraction of the population who do submit an invalid ballot, as wooley said.

The point is to force the large majority of people who have an opinion to express it, where they would not otherwise.

Well duh!

This is an excellent argument for convincing people to vote, but I suppose I just find in an inadequate argument for forcing people to vote. There’s no doubt in my mind that voting is an important privilege and responsibility, and I wish people did vote in higher numbers. People ought to vote, but if they don’t want to, that’s a choice I think we ought to respect.


Anyone else get the odd impression we’re just going to go back and forth saying essentially the same things over and over at this point? I do, and I just want to say that I’m honestly not just sticking my fingers in my ears and ignoring what you’re saying out of sheer childish stubborness, in case that was a concern…

Fair enough g8rguy. I suppose it comes down to perception of ‘freedom’ in the USA. Just strikes me as strange that compulsory voting is seen as an infringement when there are so many other points which are even more serious infringements of freedom in the USA. Hoever, these are fodder for many other debates.

Fair enough g8rguy. I suppose it comes down to perception of ‘freedom’ in the USA. Just strikes me as strange that compulsory voting is seen as an infringement when there are so many other points which are even more serious infringements of freedom in the USA. Hoever, these are fodder for many other debates.

What no one seems to mention here is that Australia has a parliamentary system, we do not. Party politics is built into the system of Australia, it is not built into the system here thank whatever, though not for lack of trying by the parties. Also, I dont know if this applies in Australia, but here the political parties have the legal status of private organizations.

I agree very much with the poster who said it appeared to him as if mandatory voting in Australia came into being in order to maintain the status quo.

I resent the assumption that peoples not choosing to vote for any of the choices on the ballot is somehow an assault on democracy by those choosing not to vote; it could equally very well be an assault on democracy by the political parties for not being able to offer anything anyone wants to vote for. Dont damn the chooser, damn the one setting the choices.

I dont see how this would in any way curtail the influence of special interests, since the influence of special interests takes place primarily after someone has been elected. Unless ofcourse one needs to believe that their candidate lost due to the efforts of ‘special interests’ rather than just face the obvious facts that the voters didnt like your candidate. It would certainly increase the influence of the special interests otherwise known as political parties, and that fact alone is enough to make me loathe the idea of mandatory voting.

Personally, I think the lack of voter turnout is the market saying it doesnt want to buy the political parties tired old goods anymore.

The political parties for their part dont want the market to dictate to them, they (or the hardcore in both) are so used to setting and determining the choices that the people have to choose from that they arent going to give that up easily. Hence we will hear more and more talk of things like publicly financed campaigns, etc, ostensibly with the motive of giving the ‘people’ a wider choice, but really only so that candidates can run who otherwise never would have been able to because no one was willing to give them any money. A candidate who cannot raise money is a candidate whom no one wants. This is all irregardless of the fact that spending does not equal winning, though many in both parties cant admit that because then, well, that might take some introspection and change on their part, which is of course asking too much.

Likewise, we will hear other prospective changes some think are needed to the system to save ‘democracy’, which really just means saving the established parties from having to change and adapt to what people really want. This whole mandatory voting idea is one such scheme. It somehow places the blame on the people themselves, as if its the peoples responsibility to choose from one of the established parties and the candidates they have chosen for us in their private primaries.

I also dont see how one can claim its not people being forced to vote, but compelled to show up at the booth. Please, what is the difference between forced and compelled? And if people are free, once they are ‘compelled’ to go to the voting booth, to not vote at all, then what the hell was the purpose of the whole thing anyway other than to lay some sort of symbolic boot on the neck?

Democracy is means to an end, not an end in and of itself. That end is individual freedom, and even a democratic vote has to meet somewhat of a litmus test of whether or not it increases or decreases individual freedom. Its got nothing to do with ‘the social good’ or a ‘social contract’ or any of that made-up-to-justify-the-unjustifiable crap.

Mandatory voting is a pretty objective limit to individual choice and freedom with a very subjective potential benefit to individual choice and freedom. As such, its a pretty obvious scam.

Only two points to add to the discussion:

  1. Perhaps non-voters should not be penalized, but rather there should be some kind of incentive to vote - oh, say a 5% rebate on your property taxes in a local election if you bother to show up? Now you’re not FORCING anyone to do anything any longer, nor penalizing them for not showing up, and you may well manage to boost participation. At least SOME of the new participants will probably have some kind of opinion and not vote randomly.

  2. I think that higher voter turnout will probably boost underdog representation - in other words, segments of the population who whouldn’t otherwise vote because they can’t stand ANY of the candidates will probably vote for opposition candidates more readily than they would for incumbents. I think this is probably a positive consequence.

Dan Abarbanel