# Why shouldn't we prevent immigration from Muslim countries? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2017, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304 "2017-03-16T12:45:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/61 "2017-03-17T01:16:18Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Let’s leave aside the first amendment for a moment. It’s clearly a barrier, but I feel like this issue is still worth talking about. > > To put it bluntly, as a feminist and civil rights activist I cannot imagine that our society is made better by importing people from countries whose predominate culture considers women second-class citizens. I know I’m not the only one with these feelings - a non-trivial number of otherwise liberal people are islamophobic, and others still simply see legitimate problems in inviting people with quite incompatible values into our society. > > So… Why is it a good idea to allow immigration from those countries? Why don’t we do a better job of enforcing or instilling American values with regards to things like the treatment of women? As a “feminist and civil rights activist”, you should know by now that the whole basis of the liberal theory of human rights is that we should deal with people as individuals, by reference to the characteristics that we know them to possess, and not as exemplars of a group, by reference to stereotypes that we attribute to the group. Declining to promote an employee who has a very high rate of absence due to illness? Fine. Declining to promote an employee because she is a woman, and women as a class have a higher rate of absence due to illness? Not fine. (And, note, it doesn’t become fine even if it is objectively true that women have a higher rate of absence due to illness.) It’s not difficult to see how this principle plays out when applied to immigration decisions rather than promotion decisions, and when applied to nationality rather than gender. So, you can sell out the values that underpin your standing as a feminist and civil rights activist, or you can affirm them. I hope you’ll do the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/62 "2017-03-17T07:31:03Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > One could write an entire book in response to the OP’s question, so I’ll go in the opposite direction and condense it down to its essence: because judging individual people based on the putative characteristics of an entire class, be it race, religion, or national origin, is the essential definition of bigotry. > > The corollary to that is that both the US and Canada were founded on the principles of welcoming immigrants from diverse places and cultures, and became great nations in large part on the strength of it. Conversely, from time to time the idea has taken hold that some races and cultures are “better” than others, and this has never ended well. Waitaminute. A religion is defined by what its proponents believe and the actions they take, and these people can choose to change their attitudes if they so desire. These are both substantial differences that separate religious affiliation from nation of origin and race (and gender, and sexuality, and any number of other things one can generally be called a bigot for). In order to be a Muslim (or a Christian, or a Hindu, or a Jew) you have to accept certain core tenets of a religion. You have to adhere to that religion’s faith, and practice at least some of its core. And yes, I will proudly stand up and say that the culture we have cultivated throughout the USA, Canada, and most of western europe is just straight-up better by any reasonable metric than the culture that permeates the middle east and many majority-muslim countries. A culture that allows women to vote is better than a culture that doesn’t. A culture that sees homosexuality as equal under the law is better than one that throws gay people off buildings. This is not just idle speculation or baseless moralizing; by any reasonable metric, these societies are simply _better_ for those involved in the society. When dealing with the well-being of people, there’s just no question. > [@](#): > > If the current “Muslim ban” should remind us of anything, it’s that any policy that has bigotry at its core – however well-intentioned it may be – is bound to demonstrate overt bigotry sooner or later. We see it already in students, scientists, engineers, and ordinary innocent people on holiday being harassed and turned away for no other reason than because of what they look like or where they or their parents were born. It happens because the legitimization of bigotry emboldens not just rural hillbillies, but government officials right down the line of authority. I won’t disagree with this. I just disagree that passing extra scrutiny to those who freely and without hesitation adhere to an ideology like Islam, to ensure that the version they practice is the “No Beer, No Bacon” variety (akin to our “Easter and Christmas” christians) rather than the “Niqab and anti-gay bigotry” variety. That’s sort of the rub to me - it’s not bigotry to reject those who freely choose to be intolerant towards others for things they cannot choose. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/63 "2017-03-17T09:34:58Z")
Perhaps you should ask yourself: Do Moslems universally accept the ideas that you find unacceptable, or is it a subset of Moslems who do? If the latter, then the policy you are advocating is a bigoted policy. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/64 "2017-03-17T11:49:34Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I just disagree that passing extra scrutiny to those who freely and without hesitation adhere to an ideology like Islam, to ensure that the version they practice is the “No Beer, No Bacon” variety (akin to our “Easter and Christmas” christians) rather than the “Niqab and anti-gay bigotry” variety. That’s sort of the rub to me - it’s not bigotry to reject those who freely choose to be intolerant towards others for things they cannot choose. But it seems that you’re being selective in applying this. Would you be in favor of asking Christians if they’re the “help the poor variety” or “keep the women barefoot and pregnant” type? There are plenty of blatantly sexist Christian denominations out there. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/65 "2017-03-17T12:42:55Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > But it seems that you’re being selective in applying this. Would you be in favor of asking Christians if they’re the “help the poor variety” or “keep the women barefoot and pregnant” type? There are plenty of blatantly sexist Christian denominations out there. Yes. I would. At least, if they came from places where that culture was common or predominate. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/66 "2017-03-17T12:58:29Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yes. I would. At least, if they came from places where that culture was common or predominate. Let’s assume a hypothetical United Jesus Republic where 75% of the women belong to churches where they are forbidden from working, can’t drive, and require the permission of a male to say get their hair cut. The other 25% belong to other churches that are more mainstream with worldwide gender roles. I think it would still be wrong to put extra scrutiny on immigrants from UJR and ask them which flavor of Christianity they practice. If we have religious freedom, we have it for everybody or we have it for nobody. If we have it for everybody, then we just cannot care and cannot and must not ask what faith a person has who wants to enter the country. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/67 "2017-03-17T13:49:43Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You know, hyperbole really detracts from your argument. “A total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.” ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/68 "2017-03-17T13:52:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s not a logical conclusion. People who are citizens here have a right to be here. Those who aren’t don’t. Nonsense. Everyone has a right to be here. Border controls and immigration restrictions of any sort are a crime against humanity and a human rights violation. The whole world is for all humanity. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/69 "2017-03-17T13:59:26Z")
I already addressed this. > [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > “A total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.” > [@XT](#): > > I don’t want to give him anything, including the benefit of any doubt. I have no doubts that if he COULD ban all Muslims he would. However, in the name of putting this to rest and in all fairness to and every poster who has commented on this, save Bob who’s post still offends, I’ll concede…I was wrong. running coach said ‘Trump called for a ban on all Muslims. Can’t be more direct than that’, and that is true, not hyperbole…he did call for that, even if, as with many of his statements, he’s walked it back (he took it off his website for instance) and in reality didn’t try and actually do this. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/70 "2017-03-17T14:02:03Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Nonsense. Everyone has a right to be here. Border controls and immigration restrictions of any sort are a crime against humanity and a human rights violation. > > The whole world is for all humanity. Sorry, but this is only true in the minds of dreamers. The reality has always been that there were borders or areas that not all humanity was free to enter any time they chose. It’s not a crime against humanity, it’s human nature itself. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/71 "2017-03-17T14:07:33Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Let’s leave aside the first amendment for a moment. … > …Why don’t we do a better job of enforcing or instilling American values with regards to things like the treatment of women? Because the First Amendment is part of those “American Values”? “Congress shall **make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;** or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” Point of fact, a significant number of people immigrating from Muslim countries are trying to get away from those countries because of how they treat women and other groups. So it seems odd to me that you would want to ban them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/72 "2017-03-17T14:21:48Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > And yes, I will proudly stand up and say that the culture we have cultivated throughout the USA, Canada, and most of western europe is just straight-up better by any reasonable metric than the culture that permeates the middle east and many majority-muslim countries. A culture that allows women to vote is better than a culture that doesn’t. A culture that sees homosexuality as equal under the law is better than one that throws gay people off buildings. This is not just idle speculation or baseless moralizing; by any reasonable metric, these societies are simply _better_ for those involved in the society. When dealing with the well-being of people, there’s just no question. A culture that practices religious toleration is better than a culture that practices religious discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/73 "2017-03-17T15:08:01Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Sorry, but this is only true in the minds of dreamers. The reality has always been that there were borders or areas that not all humanity was free to enter any time they chose. It’s not a crime against humanity, it’s human nature itself. The reality is that the King was absolutely sovereign. Until he wasn’t. And borders aren’t the same as property lines. Let’s nip that in the bud. “Our laws extend to this line here” does not mean you cannot cross it, just that you’ll be subjected to our laws once you do. And for that matter, letting in whoever wants to move to our country does not mean they’re allowed to move into your house and take over your remote control. Property rights are still a thing in a world where people are allowed to move. In fact, more so. I own an apartment I would like to rent out. Who are you to tell me who I can or cannot rent to? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/74 "2017-03-17T15:23:07Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Sorry, but this is only true in the minds of dreamers. The reality has always been that there were borders or areas that not all humanity was free to enter any time they chose. It’s not a crime against humanity, it’s human nature itself. Not really true at all. Borders have existed yes, but most restriction tended to be with respect to the movement of _goods_ not persons. Passports in their current form date from WW1. WHen people were restricted it typically embraced circumstances like tribes migrating. Border did not typically give two shits about an ordinary Joe, Yusaf or Josef entering or existing border zones. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/75 "2017-03-17T15:29:32Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The reality is that the King was absolutely sovereign. Until he wasn’t. > > And borders aren’t the same as property lines. Let’s nip that in the bud. “Our laws extend to this line here” does not mean you cannot cross it, just that you’ll be subjected to our laws once you do. And for that matter, letting in whoever wants to move to our country does not mean they’re allowed to move into your house and take over your remote control. Property rights are still a thing in a world where people are allowed to move. In fact, more so. I own an apartment I would like to rent out. Who are you to tell me who I can or cannot rent to? Except whether it was a king or a president we have always had and probably always will have borders. The poster I was responding to said that the entire world was for humanity and that any borders or restrictions were crimes against humanity. That’s bullshit based on our own natures and history. Even the restrictions and qualifiers you are putting on here are against what that poster was saying. If the world is for humanity, why should your laws bind me? There are no borders, right? Why should your property laws restrict me…the world is for humanity after all. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/76 "2017-03-17T15:30:33Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Not really true at all. Borders have existed yes, but most restriction tended to be with respect to the movement of _goods_ not persons. Passports in their current form date from WW1. WHen people were restricted it typically embraced circumstances like tribes migrating. Border did not typically give two shits about an ordinary Joe, Yusaf or Josef entering or existing border zones. Are you seriously contending that humans didn’t have territories that they defended from outsiders before WW1?? That the ONLY restriction, throughout human history, was on movement of goods and not persons?? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/77 "2017-03-17T15:36:31Z")
Are you seriously contending that a traveler, visitor, merchant etc is exactly the same as an invading Army? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/78 "2017-03-17T15:39:50Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Are you seriously contending that a traveler, visitor, merchant etc is exactly the same as an invading Army? Huh? What’s that got to do with what’s being discussed?? ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/79 "2017-03-17T15:43:03Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Sorry, but this is only true in the minds of dreamers. The reality has always been that there were borders or areas that not all humanity was free to enter any time they chose. The current situation is not _ipso facto_ just or correct. Do you understand that I’m making a normative claim? Do you know what the word “normative” means? > [@](#): > > It’s not a crime against humanity, it’s human nature itself. There’s no such thing as “human nature.” This is literally Anthropology 101-level stuff. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/80 "2017-03-17T15:46:08Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Huh? What’s that got to do with what’s being discussed?? Defense against an invading army != a ban on moving. These are two separate things that anti-immigrant folks like to conflate to their advantage. Borders have existed forever for the purposes of protecting an area from invasion, and for enforcing a nation’s laws. The idea that you can tell me who I can and can’t sell or rent my house to (or employ) based on the buyer’s (or employee’s) national origin is a very new one, however, in comparison. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304.md?page=5)