# Why shouldn't we prevent immigration from Muslim countries? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2017, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304 "2017-03-16T12:45:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/101 "2017-03-20T11:06:27Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Bosnian Muslims in central and Eastern Europe are very secularized / assimilated. It is strange to call Bosniaks native to their own land “assimilated” - the prejudice in this is extraordinary. So we simply do not belong even when we are native to the region… > [@](#): > > Somali Muslims in Finland and Pakistani Muslims in Britain are, uh, not. The Pakistani? On what basis is this said? There is strong generational difference I have seen in the data, and it is the poorer Bangladeshi who have the most social exclusion problems, contre the more educated early generation Pakistani. So much of this entire dialogue is driven by pure, blind religious prejudice. And the OP, I suppose if it is not religious-ethnic bigotry pure and simple, he should be advocating to block also the African christians who do not meet his ideas… In effect, is it not simply a return to the old arguments of the old pre 1960s reform of the American immigration policy, which held that the White Europeans being the Culturally Acceptable, only it is dressed up in the new language, dropping the racial for the more paletable framing. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/102 "2017-03-20T11:36:35Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > This is part of why I don’t believe in the liberal theory of human rights. In certain cases, the only sensible way to reason about people is by treating them as exemplars of a group, not individuals. Immigration is a good example: you’re trying to decide what your society will look like in, say, 100 years if you welcome in millions of people from a particular group. You can’t judge them as individuals because those future people don’t exist yet. The most you can do is extrapolate from the general characteristics of the group. You know that’s actually an impossible thing to decide, right? Immigration control as a way of stopping societal change is a completely doomed enterprise, because nobody has any control over that change, and whether you have or have not immigrants has very little to do with it. Imagine what a Japanese person from 1917 would think of Japan right now. Or even the canonical “generation gap” of the 60’s - a fundamental disconnect between the pre-WWII generation and their own children. The difference between Germany in the '30s compared to the '80s (or now). I’m sure other countries have their examples. There’s no _racial_ ‘general characteristics of a group’ and the \*events \*that are going to shape the next generation haven’t happened yet. Trying to plan for the next generation is a mirage. We need to do what’s right for people right now. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/103 "2017-03-20T13:21:58Z")
**Ramira** : high incidence of cousin marriage (55% of Pakistanis marry their own first cousins) with attendant birth defects, high crime rates particularly sex crimes, low rates of women working outside the home, and a high percentage of them who don’t socialize with non-muslims, think criticism should be illegal, and so forth. As far as the crime rate go, this is not broken down by national origin or religion but only by race, but it demonstrates that _South Asians_ in the UK commit sex crimes against minors at 11.5 times the rate of native British people. Quite possible that Hindu Indians are just as criminal as the Pakistanis on this front: after all, India has a very large rape problem of its own and you won’t ever hear me defend Indians for their enlightened attitudes towards women. > **[The legacy of UK's Pakistani Muslim predators | The Express Tribune](https://tribune.com.pk/article/11630/the-legacy-of-rochdales-pakistani-muslim-predators/)** > > Will the British Pakistani community now be targeted for crimes committed by these sexual offenders? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/104 "2017-03-20T17:04:43Z")
If trump had just instituted a temp ban fro any possible terrorist nation, no matter the religion, and had never said “Ban Muslims”, it likely would have sailed right thru. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/105 "2017-03-20T17:06:58Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > **Ramira** : high incidence of cousin marriage (55% of Pakistanis marry their own first cousins) with attendant birth defects, high crime rates particularly sex crimes, low rates of women working outside the home, and a high percentage of them who don’t socialize with non-muslims, think criticism should be illegal, and so forth. The actual rate of addl birth defects fro marrying a First cousin is about 1%. > **[Cousin marriage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#Biological_aspects)** > > A cousin marriage is a marriage where the spouses are cousins (i.e. people with common grandparents or people who share other fairly recent ancestors). The practice was common in earlier times and continues to be common in some societies today, though in some jurisdictions such marriages are prohibited. Worldwide, more than 10% of marriages are between first or second cousins. Cousin marriage is an important topic in anthropology and alliance theory. > In some cultures and communities, cousin m... In other words, our dislike of it is cultural, not biological. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/106 "2017-03-20T17:52:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The actual rate of addl birth defects fro marrying a First cousin is about 1%. > > [Cousin marriage - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#Biological_aspects) > > In other words, our dislike of it is cultural, not biological. Homozygosity compounds over time, so marrying a first cousin in a culture in which it’s a common practice (and in which you’re _already_ likely to share more than the canonical 12.5% of your genes) is worse than doing so in a mostly outbred culture. Two children of a brother sister pairing (in general, assuming no inbreeding in the past) will share 75% of their genes on average, but if you have repeated cycles of inbreeding then the relatedness will be much higher. In the highly inbred naked mole rate colonies (naked mole rats routinely inbreed), siblings are about 85-90% related, IIRC. (Anyone who has more up to date information is welcome to correct me). In my ethnic group, a study from the 1960s suggested siblings shared about 52% of their genes on average as opposed to 50%, due to the practice of cousin marriage. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/107 "2017-03-20T21:44:46Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Homozygosity compounds over time, so marrying a first cousin in a culture in which it’s a common practice (and in which you’re _already_ likely to share more than the canonical 12.5% of your genes) is worse than doing so in a mostly outbred culture. > > Two children of a brother sister pairing (in general, assuming no inbreeding in the past) will share 75% of their genes on average, but if you have repeated cycles of inbreeding then the relatedness will be much higher. In the highly inbred naked mole rate colonies (naked mole rats routinely inbreed), siblings are about 85-90% related, IIRC. (Anyone who has more up to date information is welcome to correct me). > > In my ethnic group, a study from the 1960s suggested siblings shared about 52% of their genes on average as opposed to 50%, due to the practice of cousin marriage. Meh, they are adults, let them take the risk. We allow those with other inheritable disorders to marry, do we not? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/108 "2017-03-20T21:52:09Z")
**Hector\_St\_Clare** , you do realize that the current Mayor of London is a Pakistani Muslim. While the initial immigrants likely had assimilation issues, I don’t think the painting of Pakistani Muslims as a whole, especially the 3rd and 4th generation of Pakistani Muslim British, as unassimilated is correct. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/109 "2017-03-21T01:31:21Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > **Ramira** : high incidence of cousin marriage (55% of Pakistanis marry their own first cousins) with attendant birth defects, high crime rates particularly sex crimes, low rates of women working outside the home, and a high percentage of them who don’t socialize with non-muslims, think criticism should be illegal, and so forth. I would be interested in seeing a factual source for these interconnected claims. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/110 "2017-03-21T01:46:32Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > You mean like the US? Because if there’s anything the most recent election has shown us, it’s that an awful lot of Americans consider women to be second-class citizens. I gotta call BS on that. Please show proof of your statement. And saying “Well, Trump got elected” isn’t gonna cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/111 "2017-03-21T03:03:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I would be interested in seeing a factual source for these interconnected claims. Here’s a recent book chapter on cousin marriage among British Pakistanis, with citations included. He quotes a 2013 study (Sheridan, 2013) that found 59% of babies born in Bradford were to first cousins, backing up the author’s own finding about 20 years earlier that found 59% consanguinity among Pakistanis in Oxford. Interestingly, the authors claim that rather than assimilating to British norms, the prevalence of consanguineous marriages has increased over time: in West Yorkshire as a whole the prevalence of first cousin marriages went from 33% to 55% between the first and second generations (Darr an Modell, 1988). > **[Cousin Marriages](https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=PiUfAwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA113&dq=pakistani%2Bbritish%2Bcousin%2Bmarriage&ots=Xz-lauvXgY&sig=1r3Cg8c13hEHUhbzTdHWkWVpOjE#v=onepage&q=pakistani%20british%20cousin%20marriage&f=false)** > > Juxtaposing contributions from geneticists and anthropologists, this volume provides a contemporary overview of cousin marriage and what is happening at the interface of public policy, the management of genetic risk and changing cultural practices... Here’s another paper from a University of Bradford researcher last year that states 50-60% consanguineous marriages across the UK as a whole “with first cousin marriages especially common”, and links this to the typical marriage practices in the region of Pakistan (Mirpur) from which a large proportion of British Pakistanis come. [http://bradscholars.brad.ac.uk:8080/bitstream/handle/10454/10073/small\_bittles\_2016.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y](http://bradscholars.brad.ac.uk:8080/bitstream/handle/10454/10073/small_bittles_2016.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y) As for the statutory rape rates, here’s a link to a liberal Pakistani newspaper that discusses the matter. They cite British government estimates between 2008-2012. Perpetrators were estimated as being 38% white, 32% unknown, 28% South Asian and 3% Black. Since the British population as a whole is 5% South Asian that works out to slightly over an 11-fold higher rate of offending among south Asians. > **[The legacy of UK's Pakistani Muslim predators | The Express Tribune](https://tribune.com.pk/article/11630/the-legacy-of-rochdales-pakistani-muslim-predators/)** > > Will the British Pakistani community now be targeted for crimes committed by these sexual offenders? > **[The legacy of UK's Pakistani Muslim predators | The Express Tribune](https://tribune.com.pk/article/11630/the-legacy-of-rochdales-pakistani-muslim-predators/)** > > Will the British Pakistani community now be targeted for crimes committed by these sexual offenders? I’ll get back to you on the women work force participation thing, as I’ll need to look up the source on that. [http://bradscholars.brad.ac.uk:8080/bitstream/handle/10454/10073/small\_bittles\_2016.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y](http://bradscholars.brad.ac.uk:8080/bitstream/handle/10454/10073/small_bittles_2016.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y) ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/112 "2017-03-23T15:30:46Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > **Hector\_St\_Clare** , you do realize that the current Mayor of London is a Pakistani Muslim. While the initial immigrants likely had assimilation issues, I don’t think the painting of Pakistani Muslims as a whole, especially the 3rd and 4th generation of Pakistani Muslim British, as unassimilated is correct. I think you’re wrong: I was unaware of this before **tomndebb** asked me for a citation, but the citation I found demonstrates that in _certain_ regards, like cousin marriage, the younger generation Pakistani British is _less_ interested in assimilating to English norms than their parents. Cousin marriage is _increasing_ over time, not decreasing. I don’t know that much about Sadiq Khan’s politics but it’s clear that the existence of some counterexamples doesn’t obviate a more general trend. The existence of some white southern evangelicals who vote Democrat doesn’t make the statement “White Southern Evangelicals are Republican” any less true. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304/113 "2017-03-23T17:24:05Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Let’s leave aside the first amendment for a moment. It’s clearly a barrier, but I feel like this issue is still worth talking about. > > To put it bluntly, as a feminist and civil rights activist I cannot imagine that our society is made better by importing people from countries whose predominate culture considers women second-class citizens. I know I’m not the only one with these feelings - a non-trivial number of otherwise liberal people are islamophobic, and others still simply see legitimate problems in inviting people with quite incompatible values into our society. > > So… Why is it a good idea to allow immigration from those countries? Why don’t we do a better job of enforcing or instilling American values with regards to things like the treatment of women? Believe it or not, the vast majority of countries in the world considered women to be second class citizens until fairly recently. It wasn’t that long ago that an American woman lost her citizenship for marrying a foreign man. She could reapply for citizenship if her husband naturalized. That’s in THIS country. You are applying a standard to the rest of the world that we would not have met two generations ago. Korea, China, Japan, and India are all places where women were considered second class citizens until recently. And when they move here, they do not make America less egalitarian, we make them more egalitarian. I don’t know any second generation Koreans that are anywhere near as sexist as my parents were. Noone and I mean Noone is going to watch an immigrant treat his wife like shit and think “Hey, I should be doing that!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-shouldnt-we-prevent-immigration-from-muslim-countries/782304.md?page=5)