# Why so few elected scientists in Western democracies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 3, 2010, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-elected-scientists-in-western-democracies/548992 "2010-08-03T10:48:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-elected-scientists-in-western-democracies/548992/41 "2010-08-04T14:40:13Z")
I’m not convinced that France has a significantly higher number of scientists in office than the UK, US or Canada. Don’t French politicians and other government functionaries traditionally graduate from Universite de Sciences Politique? (I may be mistaken, and perhaps things have changed?) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-elected-scientists-in-western-democracies/548992/42 "2010-08-04T14:48:22Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > I think in the United States today it is hard to win an election if most people notice that you are smarter than they are. We do not often hear candidates praised for their intellegence, but rather that they’d be good company for drinking beer. This is a meme I’ve never seen much support for at all, how often do we really see that said? Who do we see saying it? Do you have any evidence to support the assertion that this has become the most important factor for American voters? Do you have any evidence that it is even a significant factor for American voters? Do you have links to any polls showing this? I want to share something personal about myself. I often drink beer, I often drink beer in bars. I often drink beers in bars with guys I’d guess wouldn’t be offended if I told you they were what you’d consider to be “red necks.” These guys almost never talk about politics or the Presidency, but in the rare occasions it has come up over the years, these guys _want someone smarter than them_. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-elected-scientists-in-western-democracies/548992/43 "2010-08-04T15:49:28Z")
Nobel laureate (Chemistry 2003) Peter Agre [Considered running for the Minnesota senate seat in 2008](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Agre#2008_Senate_race), but withdrew when he could not get the party’s endorsement (they endorsed Al Franken instead). ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-elected-scientists-in-western-democracies/548992/44 "2010-08-04T16:33:00Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > [@Napier](#): > > > > I think in the United States today it is hard to win an election if most people notice that you are smarter than they are. We do not often hear candidates praised for their intellegence, but rather that they’d be good company for drinking beer. > > This is a meme I’ve never seen much support for at all, how often do we really see that said? Who do we see saying it? Do you have any evidence to support the assertion that this has become the most important factor for American voters? Do you have any evidence that it is even a significant factor for American voters? Do you have links to any polls showing this? > > I want to share something personal about myself. I often drink beer, I often drink beer in bars. I often drink beers in bars with guys I’d guess wouldn’t be offended if I told you they were what you’d consider to be “red necks.” These guys almost never talk about politics or the Presidency, but in the rare occasions it has come up over the years, these guys _want someone smarter than them_. Here are some of the things I see out there: > **[The warrior and the priest](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-mar-25-op-brownstein25-story.html)** > > The battle line between Clinton and Obama is an old one in Democratic Party politics. [http://www.nationaljournal.com/njmagazine/nj\_20100213\_4756.php](http://www.nationaljournal.com/njmagazine/nj_20100213_4756.php) [http://www.economist.com/node/10808693?story\_id=10808693](http://www.economist.com/node/10808693?story_id=10808693) [http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view\_all&address=132x4263122](http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4263122) > **[The end of the beer track/wine track idiodicy](https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2008/09/the-end-of-the-beer-track-wine-track-idiodicy/5792/)** > > The Atlantic covers news, politics, culture, technology, health, and more, through its articles, podcasts, videos, and flagship magazine. [http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=obama\_and\_the\_rules](http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=obama_and_the_rules) > **['Wine-Track' & 'Beer-Track' Democrats: Cheers To Both!!! – The Moderate...](https://themoderatevoice.com/wine-track-beer-track-democrats-cheers-to-both/)** > > It is being argued that the famous divide between ‘wine-drinking’ Democrats and ‘beer-drinking’ Democrats threatens the party’s fortunes in the run-up to the presidential nomination this year. While Bill Clinton during his race for presidency... > **[How Does Obama Woo 'Downscale Dems'?](https://www.newsweek.com/how-does-obama-woo-downscale-dems-99139)** > > He charms elites. But how does Obama woo a must-have: 'downscale Dems'? [http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/04/against\_mccain\_obama\_loses\_bee.php](http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/04/against_mccain_obama_loses_bee.php) [http://mediamatters.org/research/200709240012](http://mediamatters.org/research/200709240012) [http://chicagoist.com/2007/09/25/obama\_beer.php](http://chicagoist.com/2007/09/25/obama_beer.php) There’s also frequent reference to this meme on Chris Matthew’s television program “Hardball”. I haven’t done any independ research on the meme or the people discussing it. When you ask, “Do you have any evidence to support the assertion that this has become the most important factor for American voters?”, what do you mean by “this”? I assert that voters noticing a candidate is smarter than they are makes it hard to get elected, but may have made too broad a claim; I do think that people often resent those they see as smarter than they are, and that there is an obvious theme in campaign tactics to avoid being very noticeably smart or otherwise elite. Certainly many campaigns accuse their opponents of various kinds of elitism. I doubt this is the most important factor, though, and wouldn’t assert so. But, if by “this” you meant the beer thing, I only asserted that we hear candidates praised for it more often than for being smart. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-elected-scientists-in-western-democracies/548992/45 "2010-08-04T16:44:48Z")
Maggie Thatcher had a master’s from Oxford in chemistry, and worked in the plastics industry for five years before standing for Parliament. Even more unusually, her successor, John Major, left school at 16 and never went back (though he completed the UK equivalent of a GED). > [@Shalmanese](#): > > FWIW, a significant chunk of of China’s leadership, including Hu Jintao, graduated with degrees in Engineering. Indian PM Manmohan Singh has _two_ doctorates in economics- one from Oxford and one from Cambridge. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-elected-scientists-in-western-democracies/548992/46 "2010-08-04T18:54:18Z")
You were obviously confused by my request **Napier** , I wasn’t asking for a bunch of cites about the “wine-track” vs “beer-track”, which was just a popular topic awhile back about how some politicians appeal to so called “cultural elites” while others appeal to the “beer drinking blue collar” people of the country. I was asking, specifically, what evidence you have to support the claim that: **It is more important to Americans that the President is someone who they could have a beer with than it is that he be intelligent or qualified to lead.** You did not give me a single poll that had as one of its questions, “Is it important for you that the President is someone you could have a beer with?” There was certainly no poll or any other data in which it was asked of a sample of Americans “Is it **more** important for you that the President is someone you could have a beer with than is his intelligence?” There wasn’t even any that showed any polling about whether or not Americans disliked a President who was smarter than them (which is actually a bit of a side issue from the drinking buddy claim.) I was not looking for a general discussion. I was looking for something to back up the very specific claim that I have heard repeated dozens of times that **Americans think the drinking-buddy suitability of a Presidential candidate is important to them**. I’d be happy if you could at least provide evidence to support that. If you found evidence to at least demonstrate _it was important_, then we could try to find evidence showing if Americans think such a thing is _more_ important than other concerns (such as their opinion about his qualifications as a leader or his personal intelligence.) Again, I’m not looking at a debate about “shared cultural values” and how they are important to blue collar voters and how most Presidential candidates are upper crust wine drinkers that go to the opera and went to an Ivy League school and have to find a way to connect with people from a totally different world. That wasn’t the issue. The issue is the very specific and often repeated (verbatim) claim about the American people judging a Presidential candidate primarily based on whether or not they think he’d be a guy they could have a beer with. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-elected-scientists-in-western-democracies/548992/47 "2010-08-04T21:04:05Z")
I think there’s a difference between someone _being_ smarter than you are, and someone _telling you_ he’s smarter than you are. The latter is considerably more off-putting than the former. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-elected-scientists-in-western-democracies/548992.md?page=2)