# Why so few female jazz horn players? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 31, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463 "2009-03-31T17:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/1 "2009-03-31T17:16:34Z")
This question occurred to me when watching Jazz at Lincoln Center the other night. The ensemble had one female playing sax, which is unusual for jazz combos. There are many female jazz pianists and singers, but almost no jazz horn or woodwind artists of note. Traditionally, jazz musicians were male, and jazz singers were typically female, but that was just the order of the day. I wouldn’t think it would be a wind issue, and certainly not a talent issue, so what gives? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/2 "2009-03-31T17:29:40Z")
There aren’t many female guitarists or bassists or drummers in rock bands, either. Outside of symphony orchestras, where at least half of the musicians usually seem to be female, there just aren’t many women playing instruments in bands (as opposed to singing.) It’s probably because a female singer is more than just a singer, she’s a true performer - not just her voice, but also her body movements and even her facial expressions go into the performance. The end result is, generally, supposed to be something sexy and glamorous. Why would a woman want to be a horn player when she could be the star of the whole show instead? It’s just not “sexy” for a woman to play a horn the way it is for her to sing. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/3 "2009-03-31T17:32:43Z")
Nothing but speculation on my part, but my first guess is _tradition_. It’s along the same lines as female guitarists in Rock bands, I suppose. Two opposing forces may be at work: 1. the lack of motivation for females to take up instruments that have been dominated by males 2. the lack of openings in ensembles for female players to fill. Both of those forces may be losing traction as Women’s Movement efforts continue to blaze new trails. But the process may take longer than you and I have to watch it get closer to a 50/50 split. When you consider how many women are in marching bands (or even jazz bands) in high school and college, playing all the same instruments (including Sousaphones) that men do, it’s hard to square the relatively scarcity of active jazz horn players in professional situations. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/4 "2009-03-31T17:33:50Z")
There’s, uh, Candy Dulfer. But her shit is so Kenny G. sterile that I almost hesitate to mention her at all. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/5 "2009-03-31T17:39:22Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > There’s, uh, Candy Dulfer. > > But her shit is so Kenny G. sterile that I almost hesitate to mention her at all. I have seen Candy Dulfer blow some serious, blistering funk leads when she has been with Van Morrison or Prince!!! She is the antithesis of “sterile” at least on the occasions when I have heard her live. She is also quite easy on the eyes… ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/6 "2009-03-31T17:40:38Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > I have seen Candy Dulfer blow some serious, blistering funk leads when she has been with Van Morrison or Prince!!! > > She is the antithesis of “sterile” at least on the occasions when I have heard her live. > > She is also quite easy on the eyes… Yeah, I saw her with Maceo Parker once. I also had a girlfriend who looooooved Candy Dulfer. Can’t say I was ever impressed. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/7 "2009-03-31T17:41:09Z")
My first though was smaller lung capacities, but I don’t know really. Why wouldn’t it be a wind issue? It’d be easier for a guy to blow longer and harder more often than not, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/8 "2009-03-31T18:19:10Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > When you consider how many women are in marching bands (or even jazz bands) in high school and college, playing all the same instruments (including Sousaphones) that men do, it’s hard to square the relatively scarcity of active jazz horn players in professional situations. There’s more to it than that. There’s no comparison between jazz and marching band music - or high school “jazz ensembles” that play cheezeball arrangements of jazz songs, and, say, a jazz quartet that plays in bars. Jazz (real jazz, I should add, because jazz is by far the most co-opted form of music) is more than a musical genre - it’s an entity in itself, with all kinds of connotations of hipness and sexuality that go with that. It doesn’t matter how many band-camp girls in high school played sousaphones and trumpets; in the world of jazz, if a woman wants success, chances are she’ll go the singing route. Simply because there’s so much more glamor in it. A good jazz singer always steals the show, and the band is just background. Obviously there are jazz groups with no singer - but as I said before, if a woman wants to get into jazz she’s more likely to do so as a singer. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/9 "2009-03-31T19:37:25Z")
Twasn’t ever thus. > [@Michael Segell](#): > > Women became some of the saxophone’s earliest pioneers, extending the instrument into other idioms and venues. Etta Morgan, a member of the Berger Family’s Ladies’ Orchestra, lined up a two-week engagement in New York at the Olympia Theatre in 1876, performing as a soloist with her troupe … Elsie Hoffman, in 1889, is thought to be the first black American to solo on the instrument, with Will Marion Cook’s band. … In 1892, Bessie Mecklem made the first recordings of the saxophone when she cut 12 wax sides at the Edison factory. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/10 "2009-03-31T20:00:29Z")
However unfortunate it might be, I wonder how much is rooted in the simple fact that most of the time a woman’s physical appearance is as important to her celebrity as her talent — sometimes more important. A horn is going to block the view of her face when she plays, and brass instruments in particular have a tendency to rather noticeably distort a player’s face while they’re blowing. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/11 "2009-03-31T20:19:07Z")
I didn’t check every name on the list, feeling pretty sure I could eliminate the guys from the gals by name alone, so I could have missed some. But here are some: > **[List of jazz saxophonists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_jazz_saxophonists)** > > Jazz saxophonists are musicians who play various types of saxophones (alto saxophone, tenor saxophone, baritone saxophone etc.) in jazz and its associated subgenres. The techniques and instrumentation of this type of performance have evolved over the 20th century, influenced by both movements of musicians that became the subgenres and by particularly influential sax players who helped reshape the music. > In the 1930s, during the swing and big band era, saxophonists like altoist Johnny Hodges ... > **[Carolyn Breuer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolyn_Breuer)** > > Carolyn Breuer (born 4 July 1969) is a German jazz saxophonist (alto and soprano). > She is the daughter of jazz musician Hermann Breuer. Breuer founded her own label, NotNowMom! Records, in 2000. Carolyn Breuer (1969- ), (alto, soprano) > **[Ivy Benson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_Benson)** > > Ivy Benson (11 November 1913 – 6 May 1993) was an English musician and bandleader, who led an all-female swing band. Benson and her band gained prominence in the 1940s, headlining variety theatres and topping the bill at the London Palladium, and became the BBC's resident house band. > Benson was born on 11 November 1913 in Holbeck, Leeds, the daughter of Douglas Rolland "Digger" Benson and his wife Mary Jane Mead. Her father, a musician who played several instruments including trombone for the Le... Ivy Benson (1913–1993) > **[Jane Ira Bloom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Ira_Bloom)** > > Jane Ira Bloom (born January 12, 1955) is an American jazz soprano saxophonist and composer. > Bloom was born in Boston, Massachusetts, to Joel and Evelyn Bloom. She began as a pianist and drummer, later switching to the alto saxophone, and eventually settling on the soprano saxophone as her primary instrument. She first began playing the saxophone at age 9, studying with woodwind virtuoso Joseph Viola, chair of the Berklee College of Music Woodwinds Department, from 1968 to 1979, and studying mus... Jane Ira Bloom (1955- ), (soprano) > **[Jane Bunnett](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Bunnett)** > > Mary Jane Bunnett, OC (born October 22, 1956) is a Canadian musician and educator. A soprano saxophonist, flautist and bandleader, she is especially known for performing Afro-Cuban jazz. She travels regularly to Cuba to perform with Cuban musicians. > She changed her instruments, from pursuing her career "as a classical pianist...at age 20 to jazz and to flute and soprano saxophone." > Bunnett founded and leads an all-female Afro-Cuban/jazz group, Maqueque. Its other members are: Dánae Olano (vocal... Jane Bunnett (1955- ), (soprano) > **[Lindsay Cooper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Cooper)** > > Lindsay Cooper (3 March 1951 – 18 September 2013) was an English bassoon and oboe player and composer. Best known for her work with the band Henry Cow, she was also a member of Comus, National Health, News from Babel and David Thomas and the Pedestrians. She collaborated with a number of musicians, including Chris Cutler and Sally Potter, and co-founded the Feminist Improvising Group. She wrote scores for film and TV and a song cycle Oh Moscow which was performed live around the world in Cooper... Lindsay Cooper (1951- ), (soprano, alto) > **[Candy Dulfer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candy_Dulfer)** > > Candy Dulfer (born 19 September 1969) is a Dutch jazz and pop saxophonist. She is the daughter of jazz saxophonist Hans Dulfer. She began playing at age six and founded her band Funky Stuff when she was fourteen. Her debut album Saxuality (1990) received a Grammy nomination. She has performed and recorded with Hans Dulfer, Prince, Dave Stewart, Van Morrison, Angie Stone, Maceo Parker and Rick Braun and has performed live with Alan Parsons (1995), Pink Floyd (1990), and Tower of Power (2014). S... Candy Dulfer (1969)- , (alto) > **[Scheila Gonzalez](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheila_Gonzalez)** > > Scheila Gonzalez (born August 5, 1971 in Los Angeles, California) is an American Grammy winning multi-instrumentalist and music educator. > She is best known for playing the saxophone and other instruments in the all-female DIVA Jazz Orchestra and with artists such as Dweezil Zappa, Alex Acuña, Ray Parker Jr. and many others. Formerly a full-time member of the Zappa Plays Zappa world tour, since 2019 Gonzalez has been touring with Colin Hay as part of a revived and revamped Men at Work lineu Gonza... Scheila Gonzalez (1971- ), (tenor) > **[Rosa King](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_King)** > > Rosa King (March 14, 1939 – December 12, 2000) was an American jazz and blues saxophonist and singer who made her fame in Amsterdam. > King was born in Macon, Georgia, United States. During her career, she worked with Ben E. King, Cab Calloway, Eric Burdon, and Sly Hampton. Her reputation was boosted by a tenor sax battle with Stan Getz at the North Sea Jazz Festival in 1978. She appeared on the TV show Sesame Street and in European television shows, as well as the cult film Comeback by Eric Bur... Rosa King (and singer) > **[Amy Lee (saxophonist)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Lee_(sax))** > > Amy Lee is an American saxophonist, composer and arranger. She has played with a variety of musicians and singers, and is best known for being a member of Jimmy Buffett's Coral Reefer Band. > Lee was born in North Adams, Massachusetts and studied music at the University of Miami. After graduating, she moved to Atlanta. > While living in Atlanta, Lee met Charles Neville of the Neville Brothers and began playing for his group Diversity at the New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival. Her first album pe... Amy Lee (soprano, alto) > **[Erica Lindsay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erica_Lindsay)** > > Erica Lindsay (born June 5, 1955 in San Francisco, California, United States) is an American jazz saxophone player and composer. > Lindsay's parents, both teachers, lived in Europe in the 1960s. She began her studies in composition with Mal Waldron in Munich when she was fifteen years old. She played clarinet, then alto and tenor saxophone. In 1973, she studied for a year at the Berklee School of Music in Boston and then went back to Europe, where she began her music career. She formed and a local... Erica Lindsay (1955- ), (soprano, tenor) Somebody might want to do similar weeding out on other instruments. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/12 "2009-03-31T20:27:08Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Outside of symphony orchestras, where at least half of the musicians usually seem to be female, there just aren’t many women playing instruments in bands (as opposed to singing.) And instruments that schoolgirls _are_ encouraged to play are usually the delicate, feminine ones — flute, clarinet, piccolo, violin. Not many young girls go for (just to name a few) the tuba or the double bass. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/13 "2009-03-31T20:35:12Z")
Well, first off, this is purely anecdotal, but when my wife took up the trombone, the band teacher said “Oh, no, girls don’t play trombone; you should play the flute.” If he didn’t want her to play trombone, that was about the dumbest thing he could have said - she put her foot down and that was that. Her parents went to bat for her, and she became a trombonist. Interestingly, my niece is now a tuba player, and my MIL, the same woman who went to bat for my wife to demand that she be allowed to study trombone, has herself said that it’s a crying shame, a pretty little girl like that behind a big tuba. So I think there’s more than a little sexism that goes on when kids are picking instruments early on… I think a number of you have the cart before the horse here. Not very many people say “I want to become a jazz musician; what instrument should I pick up so I can become the biggest star?”. Your choice of instrument tends to come from what’s available, who’s in your family who plays something, what the school has available or what the band needs, what the church has, who is around who teaches something. Most people pick their instruments when they’re still kids, and it’s based a lot more on chance than you might think. Other female Jazz horn players - [Kathy Stobart interview](http://www.jazzprofessional.com/interviews/kathy_stobart.htm) [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Stobart) [Jane Bunnett](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Bunnett) [Tara Davidson](http://www.taradavidson.ca/) ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/14 "2009-03-31T20:51:11Z")
For the record, I am a female and played trombone from 5th grade through 4.5 years of college. I was the only trombone player in my class. Out of about 24 different players I was in a section with in different bands over the past 20 years, only 4 have been female. When I was in middle school and high school, about 40-50% of our jazz ensemble were female. Our school district was known for good jazz ensembles, so everyone was encouraged to join. When I was in college, I was in Jazz II. Aside from the rotating hot female singers and the couple of female Asian pianists we had from time to time, I was the only female for 4.5 years in an ensemble of 20 or so. Jazz I possibly had more - at least one or two. There were plenty of females in all of the other university music groups and I’d say an even number of male/female music majors (I was not a music major). I have absolutely no idea why more women didn’t join Jazz Ensemble. No one ever discouraged me nor pointed out that it was a strange thing for a woman to do. We did, however, tend to wear ties for performances - in ever group from 7th grade jazz on through college. Maybe that’s got something to do with it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/15 "2009-03-31T21:11:53Z")
Interesting stuff. I have to say that I haven’t heard of most of the female artists listed, other than Dulfer (I admit that I had dismissed her as a smooth jazz artist). Come to think of it, the truly “giant” names in jazz are either long dead or in their dotage at this point. There are a lot of very good musicians out there, but few with the name recognition of Gilespie or Davis or Basie. I suppose that any female horn players probably get lost in the other names-you-never-heard-of. I briefly entertained the notion of a right-brain/left-brain sort of thing, but that just doesn’t wash, even though women seem to be wired differently than men. Also, the wind aspect doesn’t seem to cut it, either. If you’ve put in the hours to become truly good at it, development of wind capacity should come with it, no? Few or no jazz bassists or drummers, either. What’s that about? Tradition again, I suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/16 "2009-03-31T23:01:48Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > I didn’t check every name on the list, feeling pretty sure I could eliminate the guys from the gals by name alone, so I could have missed some. Glad you didn’t list Tina Brooks! 😉 > [@](#): > > [Lindsay Cooper - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Cooper) > Lindsay Cooper (1951- ), (soprano, alto) Not sure I would count Lindsay either as a jazz musician or a saxophonist–though she did double on sax, her main instrument was bassoon. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/17 "2009-04-01T01:47:25Z")
“Chicks can’t blow sax.” – Trombone player I knew back in '83. Sexism, pure and simple. The world of the small jazz combo is STILL a boys’ club, and female interlopers are considered…weird. Pianists were tolerated sometimes: see Mary Lou Williams, Marian McPartland, and JoAnne Brackeen. Although [Melba Liston](http://members.tripod.com/~hardbop/liston.html), who played alongside Dexter Gordon and Wardell Gray on L.A.'s Central Ave back in the '40s, was the cat’s pajamas. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/18 "2009-04-01T08:06:14Z")
Don’t know anything about brass instruments and little about double bass, but double bass players have told me that playing the instrument is a physically hard, strenous activity - having large, strong hands seems to be a necessity for the job. This would obviously skew the male/female ratio. Thank Og for the electric bass with it’s managable scale length! ---
**Author:** ![Abby\_Emma\_Sasha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@Abby\_Emma\_Sasha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abby_Emma_Sasha)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/19 "2009-04-01T08:37:27Z")
Let’s not forget the grossness factor. I played clarinet in high school band and I remember the horn players emptying their valves. Ick, it made me wanna puke. What chick wants to deal with that? We did have a female tuba player and she rocked the house. She was 5’4" and all of about 125 lbs but she sure worked that thing like a pro. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463/20 "2009-04-01T11:02:03Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Glad you didn’t list Tina Brooks! 😉 > > Not sure I would count Lindsay either as a jazz musician or a saxophonist–though she did double on sax, her main instrument was bassoon. Tina would have been tempting if it weren’t for the fact that one of my favorite Blue Note albums is his. Mean horn and a tight group and some really neat tunes. He deserves a listen at least, for any who have yet to hear him. There were maybe ten others who turned out to be guys but whose names made me look. Once the article said “she” I included the link. There’s at least one other female I didn’t include: [Grace Kelly!](http://www.gracekellymusic.com/) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-few-female-jazz-horn-players/491463.md?page=2)