# Why so Little Hate for the US Soldiers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727 "2011-07-03T16:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![sprale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sprale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sprale)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/281 "2011-07-11T21:30:45Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > I’m arguing that US citizens (along with others) had their rights taken away when they were taken illegally to Gitmo, and none of the heroic fighting of US soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan stopped the PATRIOT act. So the claim that US soldiers protect the freedoms and rights of US citizens is false. Unless you want to argue that everybody who is in Gitmo deserved (although that has been disproven) and that guilty people don’t need rights (as many Americans on this board argue). I don’t think that you have to argue that point, that is the purpose of Gitmo; to hold captive individuals that the US does not wish to recognize the rights of. Soldiers mostly follow orders, policy is set at a much higher level, but those at the bottom do not always agree with those policies. Gitmo exists to circumvent our laws. The guilty should only loose their rights when found guilty in a court of law, not at the will of an individual or independently operating group. Exceptions to that need to remain few and far between. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/282 "2011-07-11T22:21:48Z")
> [@sprale](#): > > I don’t think that you have to argue that point, that is the purpose of Gitmo; to hold captive individuals that the US does not wish to recognize the rights of. Soldiers mostly follow orders, policy is set at a much higher level, but those at the bottom do not always agree with those policies. Gitmo exists to circumvent our laws. The guilty should only loose their rights when found guilty in a court of law, not at the will of an individual or independently operating group. Exceptions to that need to remain few and far between. So then we can assume you’re outraged at how many Americans were held in prison camps in the 1860s, without any trial in a completely undeclared war. Similarly, can we assume you gnash you lr teeth in anger at the way we treat Lincoln as a great hero even though he killed more Americans than any foreign leader and violated the civil rights of Americans at a far greater rate than George Bush ever dreamed of? ---
**Author:** ![sprale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sprale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sprale)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/283 "2011-07-12T14:07:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then we can assume you’re outraged at how many Americans were held in prison camps in the 1860s, without any trial in a completely undeclared war. > Similarly, can we assume you gnash you lr teeth in anger at the way we treat Lincoln as a great hero even though he killed more Americans than any foreign leader and violated the civil rights of Americans at a far greater rate than George Bush ever dreamed of? Yes, I do find those actions of historical past to be horrendous. I hope that those examples of failure would stand to guide modern actions and decisions in an attempt to avoid repeating. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/284 "2011-07-12T14:13:50Z")
> [@sprale](#): > > Yes, I do find those actions of historical past to be horrendous. I hope that those examples of failure would stand to guide modern actions and decisions in an attempt to avoid repeating. You think it was wrong to hold captured Confederate soldiers? How could the Union possibly have won the Civil War if they simply kept releasing any Confederate soldiers they captured? Similarly, were the US to simply turn loose any German POWs they captured in WWII, I don’t see how they could possibly have won there either. We certainly didn’t have the resources to give every individual soldier in both wars a civilian trial with a jury, defense counsel, and everything else associated with civilian trials. For that matter, I don’t of any country that gives POWs trials. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/285 "2011-07-12T14:51:40Z")
Ibn Warraq, I’m not sure where you are going with your last exchange. World governments typically recognize two types of imprisonment, criminal and warfare. Gitmo was specifically created to establish a separate type of imprisonment that was not bound by either the rules governing prisoners of war or the rules governing criminal incarceration. That is not some Lefty view of the world, it was the explicit design set forth by the Bush Administration when it was created and so argued by that administration in subsequent judicial proceedings. Your challenge to sprale’s observations are too vague to mean much while the very fact that you are challenging his comments indicates that you hold some view, (that you have not explained), that differs from that of the people who actually set up Gitmo. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/286 "2011-07-12T15:12:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For that matter, I don’t of any country that gives POWs trials. The people held in Gitmo (and similar albeit more secretive prisons) are not POWs. Not on paper, and for most of them not in practice either. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/287 "2011-07-12T16:07:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Ibn Warraq, I’m not sure where you are going with your last exchange. World governments typically recognize two types of imprisonment, criminal and warfare. Gitmo was specifically created to establish a separate type of imprisonment that was not bound by either the rules governing prisoners of war or the rules governing criminal incarceration. That is not some Lefty view of the world, it was the explicit design set forth by the Bush Administration when it was created and so argued by that administration in subsequent judicial proceedings. > > Your challenge to sprale’s observations are too vague to mean much while the very fact that you are challenging his comments indicates that you hold some view, (that you have not explained), that differs from that of the people who actually set up Gitmo. > > What’s your point? You should reread Sprale’s post because you’re talking about completely separate things. Sprale claimed; > [@](#): > > The guilty should only loose their rights when found guilty in a court of law, not at the will of an individual or independently operating group. Exceptions to that need to remain few and far between. I pointed out that by such a standard then it was wrong to throw American citizens in jail during the 1860s without any trial for allegedly being soldiers in the Confederacy during an undeclared war. Sprale clearly agreed with this post. > [@](#): > > Yes, I do find those actions of historical past to be horrendous. I hope that those examples of failure would stand to guide modern actions and decisions in an attempt to avoid repeating. Moreover he proclaimed that they shouldn’t be jailed without a finding by “a court of law”. Virtually none of the people jailed during WWII for allegedly being part of the German army during WWII were given trials. By Sprale’s standards this was wrong and that all accused POWs should have been given trials before being thrown away in prison. Similarly, if one agrees that people held in captivity by the US military should be given civilian as opposed to military trials then one should be outraged at the number of executions of alleged “spies” and “saboteurs” that took place in both the Civil War and WWII who were not given civilian trials. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/288 "2011-07-12T16:08:43Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The people held in Gitmo (and similar albeit more secretive prisons) are not POWs. Not on paper, and for most of them not in practice either. Yes, but according to Sprale, POWs should be given trials to rather than being locked away in prison for years if not decades. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/289 "2011-07-12T16:40:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, but according to Sprale, POWs should be given trials to rather than being locked away in prison for years if not decades. I suspect that you are misrepresenting his position, but at least I know what you are on about, now. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/290 "2011-07-12T16:52:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I suspect that you are misrepresenting his position, but at least I know what you are on about, now. I am not misrepresenting his position as anyone who has read his posts can tell. Read his posts where he specifically says no one should be jailed without trial and condemns the US jailing accused Confederate soldiers. Sorry, but you’re the one misrepresenting him not me. ---
**Author:** ![sprale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sprale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sprale)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/291 "2011-07-12T17:11:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I am not misrepresenting his position as anyone who has read his posts can tell. > > Read his posts where he specifically says no one should be jailed without trial and condemns the US jailing accused Confederate soldiers. > > Sorry, but you’re the one misrepresenting him not me. Let’s elaborate. There is and should be clarification between combatants during a time of war, non-combatants during any period of time, and those who commit criminals acts at any time. Criminals deserve the due process reserved for citizens of this country, even others found guilty of crimes on our soil. Holding non-combatants without charges or trial is inexcusable under any circumstances and is construed as nothing more than racism in situations like locking up Japanese-Americans simply for being of Japanese descent. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/292 "2011-07-12T17:19:48Z")
> [@sprale](#): > > Let’s elaborate. There is and should be clarification between combatants during a time of war, non-combatants during any period of time, and those who commit criminals acts at any time. Criminals deserve the due process reserved for citizens of this country, even others found guilty of crimes on our soil. Holding non-combatants without charges or trial is inexcusable under any circumstances and is construed as nothing more than racism in situations like locking up Japanese-Americans simply for being of Japanese descent. You seem to be backtracking. Your previous posts implied that you thought that the military shouldn’t be allowed to throw anyone in prison without trial. Now you seem to be trying to fudge things. Weren’t you outraged that the US government jailed thousands of American citizens for years during the Civil War(which was never declared) without any trial by accusing them of being captured Confederate soldiers. Similarly aren’t you outraged that the the US executed countless people during WWII for being “spies” or “saboteurs” without the benefit of civilian trials? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/293 "2011-07-12T17:27:25Z")
Moreover since you believe that “Criminals deserve the due process reserved for citizens of this country, even others found guilty of crimes on our soil”, I assume you’re also outraged that the people charged at Nuremburg weren’t given civilian trials the way “citizens of this country” would be. ---
**Author:** ![sprale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sprale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sprale)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/294 "2011-07-12T17:43:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You seem to be backtracking. > > Your previous posts implied that you thought that the military shouldn’t be allowed to throw anyone in prison without trial. > > Now you seem to be trying to fudge things. > > Weren’t you outraged that the US government jailed thousands of American citizens for years during the Civil War(which was never declared) without any trial by accusing them of being captured Confederate soldiers. > > Similarly aren’t you outraged that the the US executed countless people during WWII for being “spies” or “saboteurs” without the benefit of civilian trials? I admit that I have not read the entire thread. I was commenting on more recent posts pertaining to criminals being locked up without charges or trials. If you want to go back to the topic of combatants being detained without either, go for it. I’ll try to be more clear in the future as to avoid confusing you. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Moreover since you believe that “Criminals deserve the due process reserved for citizens of this country, even others found guilty of crimes on our soil”, I assume you’re also outraged that the people charged at Nuremburg weren’t given civilian trials the way “citizens of this country” would be. I don’t believe that American law would have pertained to the Nuremburg trials, though those crimes were a bit further reaching than against the citizens of only one country. Compromises might just have to be made in those situations. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/295 "2011-07-12T17:51:52Z")
So are you now saying you weren’t disgusted US jailing thousands of American civilians without trial in an undeclared war in the 1860s after first saying you were? Also, after proclaiming that all “criminals” captured by the US military deserve the same rights as American civilians you now seem to have decided that it was ok for the US to execute numerous “spies” and “saboteurs” without the benefit of civilian trials. Please explain why you’ve done a sudden about face. Did you change your mind once you realized the implications of your claims that no one should be locked up without civilian trials? If so, that’s fine, but be upfront about it please. ---
**Author:** ![sprale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sprale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sprale)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/296 "2011-07-12T18:01:22Z")
> [@sprale](#): > > Let’s elaborate. There is and should be clarification between combatants during a time of war, non-combatants during any period of time, and those who commit criminals acts at any time. Criminals deserve the due process reserved for citizens of this country, even others found guilty of crimes on our soil. Holding non-combatants without charges or trial is inexcusable under any circumstances and is construed as nothing more than racism in situations like locking up Japanese-Americans simply for being of Japanese descent. Am I off-base with this point of view? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So are you now saying you weren’t disgusted US jailing thousands of American civilians without trial in an undeclared war in the 1860s after first saying you were? > > Also, after proclaiming that all “criminals” captured by the US military deserve the same rights as American civilians you now seem to have decided that it was ok for the US to execute numerous “spies” and “saboteurs” without the benefit of civilian trials. > > Please explain why you’ve done a sudden about face. > > Did you change your mind once you realized the implications of your claims that no one should be locked up without civilian trials? > > If so, that’s fine, but be upfront about it please. You’re doing a fine job of making assumptions and reaching out further than my words take you. I may not have been specific enough in the beginning, but you’re jumping to wild conclusions about my position. A criminal is a person who acts independently or with a group against another person or group. Accused criminals deserve the benefit of doubt or our justice system fails. A combatant is a part of a military, police force, or militia. Would you try a soldier for the murder of a soldier of an opposing force? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/297 "2011-07-12T18:26:51Z")
I wasn’t “making assumptions”, just taking you at your word. I mentioned US government jailing thousands of American civilians for allegedly fighting for the Confederacy without trial and your response was > [@](#): > > Quote: > Yes, I do find those actions of historical past to be horrendous. I hope that those examples of failure would stand to guide modern actions and decisions in an attempt to avoid repeating. You’re clearly condemning the US throwing American citizens in prison camps on charges of being “rebels”. Did you think I was referring to some other war? I don’t see how since I mentioned the 1860s. Moreover your attempt at making distinctions between “combatants” and “criminals” is silly because lots of people are both. For example members of the Taliban and the 9/11 hijackers were soldiers who engaged in behavior that many would consider criminal. Similarly, as mentioned during WWII, the US executed a number of people for being “spies” or “saboteurs” and other assorted “war crimes” and not one of them were given civilian trials. Based on your earlier claims this was outrageous and they should have been given civilian trials. Do you still believe that, or have you changed your mind? ---
**Author:** ![sprale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sprale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sprale)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/298 "2011-07-12T18:42:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I wasn’t “making assumptions”, just taking you at your word. > > I mentioned US government jailing thousands of American civilians for allegedly fighting for the Confederacy without trial and your response was > > You’re clearly condemning the US throwing American citizens in prison camps on charges of being “rebels”. > > Did you think I was referring to some other war? I don’t see how since I mentioned the 1860s. > > Moreover your attempt at making distinctions between “combatants” and “criminals” is silly because lots of people are both. > > For example members of the Taliban and the 9/11 hijackers were soldiers who engaged in behavior that many would consider criminal. > > Similarly, as mentioned during WWII, the US executed a number of people for being “spies” or “saboteurs” and other assorted “war crimes” and not one of them were given civilian trials. > > Based on your earlier claims this was outrageous and they should have been given civilian trials. > > Do you still believe that, or have you changed your mind? I haven’t changed my mind. Civilian non-combatants that take up arms (beyond simply personal defense) are combatants to me, especially when they do so en mass like in the Civil War. At that point, Confederates were much more than simply innocent civilians. (and I’m from the South) I think that even spies should be put on trial and the accusers required to present evidence. In cases against countries or governments, that would rightly require federal trials. I think we are on the same page, but I’m starting to wonder whether you actually disagree with me, or whether you just want to so you can argue. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![sprale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sprale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sprale)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/299 "2011-07-12T18:43:59Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I suspect that you are misrepresenting his position, but at least I know what you are on about, now. At least someone does… ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/300 "2011-07-12T18:57:26Z")
> **[The Times & The Sunday Times](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/)** > > News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield sent innocent people to Gitmo and did not care. It was disgusting. Bush felt he could declare them terrorists and keep them in jail forever. No trial, no lawyers. It was a shameful time for America. It was another blow to America being the shiny house on the hill and wallowing in the mud with dictatorships. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727.md?page=16)