# Why so Little Hate for the US Soldiers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727 "2011-07-03T16:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/61 "2011-07-04T03:08:19Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The anti war protests against Vietnam helped end the war. That is the best that can be said about any anti war demonstrations. That is the best results that can be hoped for. It was a great success. I got great satisfaction out of the results. Including treasonous activities (see Jane Fonda), riots, tearing down the social order, etc. etc. The anti-war movement alienated a lot of people skeptical of the war (especially family members of soldiers) by often declaring their support for the Vietcong. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/62 "2011-07-04T03:12:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t think that’s true at all. > > The war ended because the US gotten beaten by an army of Asian peasants not because of a bunch of white, middle-class college students protested against the war. > > If anything the anti-war protests prolonged the war by angering so many Americans that they stayed in Vietnam longer than they should have. The US didn’t get “beaten” by the Vietcong or even the North Vietnamese. The Tet offensive for instance pretty much destroyed the strength of the Vietcong. It wasn’t protests or the enemy but simply politicians being unwilling to prosecute a total war by say invading North Vietnam (probably wisely) and most Americans being quietly opposed to the war (but not burning draft offices and calling soldiers baby-killers). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/63 "2011-07-04T03:48:25Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The US didn’t get “beaten” by the Vietcong or even the North Vietnamese. The Tet offensive for instance pretty much destroyed the strength of the Vietcong. It wasn’t protests or the enemy but simply politicians being unwilling to prosecute a total war by say invading North Vietnam (probably wisely) and most Americans being quietly opposed to the war (but not burning draft offices and calling soldiers baby-killers). The politicians who claim were “unwilling” to prosecute the war hard enough were willing to lose 58,000 Americans in Vietnam. By contrast, only about 5,000 Americans have been killed in the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. Sorry, but the idea that the US lost the Vietnam War was due to a lack of sufficient political will is complete and total crap. The US strategy was to wear the NLF(more popularly known as the Viet Cong) but the US were the ones who got worn out. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/64 "2011-07-04T04:00:32Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Why would anyone hate the glorious American soldier? They single-handedly saved the world from the most powerful and sadistic military force that it had ever known by winning the Cold War and stood laughing astride the corpse of the USSR. They were named Time’s Person of the Year. Twice. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/65 "2011-07-04T04:12:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The politicians who claim were “unwilling” to prosecute the war hard enough were willing to lose 58,000 Americans in Vietnam. > > By contrast, only about 5,000 Americans have been killed in the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. > > Sorry, but the idea that the US lost the Vietnam War was due to a lack of sufficient political will is complete and total crap. > > The US strategy was to wear the NLF(more popularly known as the Viet Cong) but the US were the ones who got worn out. For example President Johnson constantly stopped and resumed his bombing raids in the hopes of forcing negotiations. And the strategy of wearing out the Vietcong within South Vietnam shows some lack of political will-North Vietnam even if not invaded per say could have been “raided” or something (again probably not desirable). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/66 "2011-07-04T04:13:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t think that’s true at all. > > The war ended because the US gotten beaten by an army of Asian peasants not because of a bunch of white, middle-class college students protested against the war. > > If anything the anti-war protests prolonged the war by angering so many Americans that they stayed in Vietnam longer than they should have. It still is true. Johnson quit running for the presidency because of the huge protests. The marches had a huge political impact, whether today it is admitted or not. There has been a lot of effort trying to downplay the significance. That is expected. The establishment would certainly not give credibility to the truth. They must discourage future protests, you know. The protests certainly did not prolong the war. They were instrumental in ending it. It was a lot more than middle class white students. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/67 "2011-07-04T04:24:44Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It still is true. Johnson quit running for the presidency because of the huge protests. The marches had a huge political impact, whether today it is admitted or not. There has been a lot of effort trying to downplay the significance. That is expected. The establishment would certainly not give credibility to the truth. They must discourage future protests, you know. > The protests certainly did not prolong the war. They were instrumental in ending it. > It was a lot more than middle class white students. No, what was instrumental in ending it was that the US was defeated by the Vietnamese. It was the Vietnamese who brought an end to the war not the white middle-class protestors. As I said, if anything they prolonged it by angering Richard Nixon’s “silent majority” and getting them to stay in the war years after it was obvious that the US had lost. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/68 "2011-07-04T04:25:49Z")
If we didn’t lose the Vietnam War, how come Saigon is now called Ho Chi Minh City? Saying that we could have won if only so-and-so had happened isn’t the same thing as winning. In fact, it’s the opposite of winning, which is losing. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/69 "2011-07-04T04:43:00Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > There are tens of millions of dead civilian men, women and children scattered across 4 continents who can bear testament to the USA as the ‘worlds policeman’. I would be facinated to hear details and justifications for this claim. To get there, you would have to be referring to the dead of World War II and laying them at America’s doorstep. If that is your intent, using logic or historical context is a waste of time. There are, however, tens of millions of people who owe their freedom to the United States of America, her military and her taxpayers. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/70 "2011-07-04T05:08:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What is an “illegal repudiation of US’s international obligations”? To keep it simple, let’s start with the unambiguous prohibition on the international use of force as set forth by the UN Charter. The only exceptions are self-defense and UN Security Council authorization, neither of which applies in this scenario. Hence, the invasion was and continues to be illegal. > [@](#): > > But lets, for the sake of argument, say that the Iraq war was illegal\*. Can you site any instance in international law when soldiers were prosecuted for participation in regular military procedures? What precedent are citing? So far, you’ve mentioned Nuremberg. Again, what was the lowest ranking military person prosecuted there? The Nuremberg Tribunal, as you likely know, was intended to try the NAZI high command rather than to serve as a general court for prosecuting NAZIs. Some of the later ad-hoc tribunals focused much more on small fish of the type we’re talking about… For example, the milestone ICTY prosecution of Tadic was huge news on the international arena, but people tend to forget that Tadic himself was a vey, very minor player in the overall scheme of things. You are correct that the ad-hoc tribunals have not prosecuted soldiers for engaging in illegal wars without some actual further criminal acts on their part. I’m not sure what you expect this to prove, however. My argument is that US troops are participating in illegal wars, and thus deserve to be hated, regardless of whether or not they would ever be subjected to criminal proceedings for said participation. > [@Kozmik](#): > > They were named Time’s Person of the Year. Twice. Which is exactly the kind of counterproductive propaganda I would like to see go away. The last thing we should be doing is idolizing the very people that are making our world a worse place. > [@Evil\_One](#): > > There are, however, tens of millions of people who owe their freedom to the United States of America, her military and her taxpayers. I quote your words back at you: “I would be facinated to hear details and justifications for this claim.” ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/71 "2011-07-04T05:27:38Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Why so Little Hate for the US Soldiers? Um, because they are friends of ours and our children? Because we believe they are mostly doing good? Because, even us 60s liberals, believe your favorites were and are evil? Dude, your posts have found that magical land between neocons and 60s liberals: we both disagree strongly with what you say. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/72 "2011-07-04T05:44:43Z")
I’m still trying to figure out how if you’re trying to effect institutional change in the U.S. or its broader culture, why would you demonize the soldiers in particular? It’d be like ripping into a McDonald’s burger flipper for their crappy food. Especially since the OP’s understanding of the past was based around a stab in the back legend. For some reason this reminds me of Arthur Silber’s [Let Us Be Cowards](http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2007/05/against-annihilation-of-spirit-let-us.html) essay where he quotes the Americanization of Emily. > [@](#): > > I don’t trust people who make bitter reflections about war. … It’s always the generals with the bloodiest records who are the first to shout what a Hell it is. And it’s always the widows who lead the Memorial Day parades … we shall never end wars … by blaming it on ministers and generals or warmongering imperialists or all the other banal bogies. It’s the rest of us who build statues to those generals and name boulevards after those ministers; the rest of us who make heroes of our dead and shrines of our battlefields. We wear our widows’ weeds like nuns and perpetuate war by exalting its sacrifices. My brother died at Anzio – an everyday soldier’s death, no special heroism involved. They buried what pieces they found of him. But my mother insists he died a brave death and pretends to be very proud. I question how useful that line of thinking would really be, but at least it’s a little more sophisticated. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/73 "2011-07-04T05:46:29Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I quote your words back at you: “I would be facinated to hear details and justifications for this claim.” Setting aside your apparent willful ignorance of history, here’s a short list of countries that would have been dominated by fascism/communism if not for the United States. South Korea Western Europe after WW II Eastern Europe after the Cold War Australia and most of the south pacific following World War II Israel And countless millions that might otherwise be dominated but for the threat posed by the United States military. This is all obvious stuff to anyone not blinded by stubborn adherence to a leftist ideology. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/74 "2011-07-04T06:31:21Z")
> [@Evil\_One](#): > > This is all obvious stuff to anyone not blinded by stubborn adherence to a leftist ideology. You might want to turn your ideology detector on yourself, if you believe that historical ignorance or revisionism is only practiced by the left. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/75 "2011-07-04T06:44:02Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If we didn’t lose the Vietnam War, how come Saigon is now called Ho Chi Minh City? > > Saying that we could have won if only so-and-so had happened isn’t the same thing as winning. In fact, it’s the opposite of winning, which is losing. We could have destroyed the country a thousand times over. Kind of defeats the purpose of supporting freedom if you kill everybody. If you look at regimes like the Khmer Rouge Communist party there were dictators who engaged in a scorched earth policy of death. They killed millions. ---
**Author:** ![Marquez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Marquez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marquez)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/76 "2011-07-04T08:03:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > While we value your ability to express an opinion consider it ignored. Obviously not because you have just responded. > [@](#): > > those who opposed us backed regimes that did not favor freedom. > [@](#): > > It’s difficult in many countries to establish a freely elected/self- governing society because of years of ingrained corruption. Are you George W Bush? Freedom to do what or for what purpose exactly? What about all the coups against democratically elected leaders? Were these countries not practising ‘freedom’ already? I would look to corruption in your own country first, this is why the US is currently getting fucked in the A by Halliburton and Lockheed and why you have a budget crisis. > [@](#): > > However, we fought the wars because the UN is useless in this regard and we are the biggest dog in the yard. Yeah you’re absolutely right but don’t pretend it was for altruistic reasons. Everything the US has done has been so it can carry on hogging the biggest bone and staying in the biggest kennel. Which is fine, all empires do this. > [@](#): > > This is what we celebrate on the 4th. you’re free to do whatever you want on that day or any other day I’m British. I have to check my diary but I think I have burning a stars and stripes in my back garden pencilled in. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/77 "2011-07-04T08:26:59Z")
Being completely clear, though, the Khmer Rouge’s systemic mass murder was not a strategy of war so much as a strategy of societal restructuring. ETA: Sorry, that’s at **Magiver**. I also forgot to point out that the Khmer Rouge wasn’t really big on technology — they were all about the starvation and armaments that would be recognizable to people thousands of years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/78 "2011-07-04T08:40:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We could have destroyed the country a thousand times over. Kind of defeats the purpose of supporting freedom if you kill everybody. But shooting some of everybody, napalming some of the others and then leave so that the not-freedom can happen anyway does.. not ? Whut ? What kind of insane troll logic\* are you operating on here ? America lost Viet-Nam. There’s no debate there. The US fought, and then it stopped fighting, and the people the US was fighting got what they wanted, which the US was fighting them about in an attempt to deny it from them. Then it didn’t any more. And its enemies had what they were going to have before the US decided to fight them. But that the US couldn’t prevent them from having in the end, on account of deciding not to fight further and going back home. Which part of this whole process, which for lack of a better neologism we shall call “losing a war”, eludes you ? - (to clarify to mods: I’m not accusing Magiver of being a troll, I’m using [an idiom](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic)) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/79 "2011-07-04T12:31:42Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Treating one’s own kind differently than one treats others should, I believe, be abhorrent to modern mankind. Hence, if it acceptable to hate average German soldiers for German policies, it should be no less acceptable to hate average US soldiers for US policies.. You do realize most people view the average German Wehrmacht soldier differently from the Waffen-SS? ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/80 "2011-07-04T13:20:02Z")
To the OP’s question, I think the thing is, Soldiers don’t make the policy. They salute and march, and that is what they should do. If you are against the war, you should be angry at the politicians who start them, and angrier still at the ones who ran on platforms of ending them, and don’t. YOu cite the Vietnam experience where some war protestors treated our soldiers badly. Today everyone agrees that was wrong. They didn’t start the war, they did the job they were asked to do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727.md?page=5)