# Why so Little Hate for the US Soldiers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727 "2011-07-03T16:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/101 "2011-07-04T19:14:08Z")
It is smart to like the Army, to recognize them as members of your society in good standing, and to have the Army members FEEL like members of society in good standing. Just ask any Egyptian. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/102 "2011-07-04T19:15:17Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Anyway, what do you think? Isn’t it plausible that we could hasten the end of current wars by demonizing and deriding the people prosecuting them? Actually, it was those people doing the demonizing and deriding of US soldiers that prolonged the Vietnam debacle and told the world that the US military did not have the strength from its people to see a military campaign through to its conclusion. It certainly brought into question the value of US democracy as well. Hence it is taking longer and longer for wars to complete and the world has no respect or fear of American military might. Many more lives have been lost as a result. People who attempt to demoralize the troops, are simply traitors and assholes. I have no problem with people advocating opposition to a war. That is part of the political process. There is nothing political about undermining the morality of your armed forces. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/103 "2011-07-04T19:16:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Or for that matter, just try to use the internet in places like China and experience first hand what it’s like to have big brother filter free speech for you. Hey, he should try using the Internet in North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/104 "2011-07-04T19:27:56Z")
> [@Marquez](#): > > I think the link between members of the Saudi royal family and Al-Q is pretty well-established. For example: [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/world/middleeast/24saudi.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/world/middleeast/24saudi.html) You’re aware that the House of Saud has literally thousands of members, right? ([Wiki says seven thousand.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_saud)) When a member of the Saudi royal family does something, that’s not necessarily the same as the Saudi government doing something. (That said, it’s not clear that the Taliban could have “handed over” Al Qaeda —I’ve never really felt toppling their government for Al Qaeda’s actions was legitimate, though I doubt that any other course would have been politically feasible.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/105 "2011-07-04T19:36:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It wasn’t a war in the sense that we were under threat or wanted to conquer land. We took sides in a civil war. It’s not a win to destroy the people you’re trying to help. I’m not aware of the US showing much restraint when it came to destroying, or trying to destroy the people north of the border (and some south…). You guys dropped over 600.000 tons of bombs on the country over the course of the war - that’s ~15 tons per inhabitant, for reference. Although that’s using the pop tally for both Viet Nams, not just the North - so I guess the real number would be more like 20 tons of bombs per individual Commie. Where I come from that can be transliterated as “fuck all of y’all”. > [@](#): > > Yes, we failed in this attempt. To consider it a loss in this context is a bit of a misnomer given the topic of this thread. We are proud of those who served in Vietnam. Their cause was noble just as it was in Korea. You know, it really wasn’t. It was bullshit power games and dick-waving contests with the Soviet & Chinese, using a civilian population as the game board. A population which quite evidently did _not_ want you or anyone else getting up in their business to begin with. And then the war turned \*real \*ugly. I pity the poor schmucks who got roped into this and thrown into that butchery - on both sides. But noble ? Pfft. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/106 "2011-07-04T19:52:11Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Actually, it was those people doing the demonizing and deriding of US soldiers that prolonged the Vietnam debacle and told the world that the US military did not have the strength from its people to see a military campaign through to its conclusion. What an amazing ability to accuse a bystander for a robbery that went wrong. The whole Vietnam War was a fraud of massive proportions. The instigating incident, the on-going mess of a strategy and loss of human life including grave violations of civilian life and, its ending that should have come much, much earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/107 "2011-07-04T20:10:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well here’s the rub. We hate people who throw acid on little girls for the crime of wanting an education while at the same time taking little boys and turning them into killing robots against us. This is what Al Qaeda does in places like Afghanistan and Yemen. Oh, come on now. You really expect us to believe that the US high command cares for the well-being of foreigners everywhere? That a selfless concern for their rights, rather than an imperialistic grab for global hegemony, is what’s really driving US foreign policy? Reality seems to contradict this brazen statement. You mentioned Yemen… Where were your warplanes and soldiers when its dictator was recently slaughtering the protesting Yemeni people in recent months? Did your failure to protect them have anything to do with the fact that the brutal dictator was an ally of yours? And when are you going to go after the horribly repressive regime in Saudi Arabia? When will you save the Palestinians from the Israelis? When will you put boots on the ground to stop the horrific human rights abuses being perpetuated by the Pakistani secret service? If your words were true, the questions above would appear reasonable rather than preposterous. > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > It is smart to like the Army, to recognize them as members of your society in good standing, and to have the Army members FEEL like members of society in good standing. Just ask any Egyptian. I don’t know about you, but I personally do not believe that a society should ever be expected to set policies based on fear of its own armed forces. > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > People who attempt to demoralize the troops, are simply traitors and assholes. That’s a very scary type of thinking, and one of the reasons why I believe that this idolization of soldiers has to stop, and stop soon. Once you’re blindly admiring your soldiers and placing them on undeserved pedestals, it begins to make perfect sense to dismiss those that refuse to partake in this hysterical adoration as “traitors.” And from there, it’s only a small hop and a skip to prison camps, firing squads, and other measures intended to purge society of the “treasonous” element. Let’s stop this nonsense while we still can. The soldiers are **not** angelic creatures that eat rainbows and shit freedom, and I am \*\* not \*\* a traitor for being willing to say so. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/108 "2011-07-04T20:18:34Z")
I feel sorry for the soldiers. They are taken far from home and told to fight in wars that make no sense.We are not defending the homeland from invaders. Although the last few have had oil. That must be a coincidence. We of course are involved in Libya and Somalia. They also have oil. We hate Iran and Venezuela. They have oil and wont let us control it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/109 "2011-07-04T20:22:42Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > That’s a very scary type of thinking, and one of the reasons why I believe that this idolization of soldiers has to stop, and stop soon. Once you’re blindly admiring your soldiers and placing them on undeserved pedestals, it begins to make perfect sense to dismiss those that refuse to partake in this hysterical adoration as “traitors.” And from there, it’s only a small hop and a skip to prison camps, firing squads, and other measures intended to purge society of the “treasonous” element. I’m sorry, but it’s not possible for a reasonable person to believe you actually think this since you’ve repeatedly made it clear you’re a fan of “authoritarian socialism” and supported Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong who did execute millions and locked up millions more in prison camps for displaying insufficient patriotic fervor. Unless of course you’ve changed your mind and now oppose the gulags and the executions of traitors and “counter-revolutionaries”. Do you? Because, as I said, if you don’t it’s impossible for anyone to believe that you mean what you put in the above post. And no, I’m not calling you a liar or a troll, merely asking for clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/110 "2011-07-04T20:23:47Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I feel sorry for the soldiers. They are taken far from home and told to fight in wars that make no sense.We are not defending the homeland from invaders. Although the last few have had oil. That must be a coincidence. We of course are involved in Libya and Somalia. They also have oil. We hate Iran and Venezuela. They have oil and wont let us control it. How are we currently fighting a war in Somalia? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/111 "2011-07-04T20:48:05Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > … and I am \*\* not \*\* a traitor for being willing to say so. Perhaps, but you advocate for hate towards your own. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/112 "2011-07-04T20:50:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > How are we currently fighting a war in Somalia? America isn’t currently fighting in Libya either, but they are involved as **Gonzo** states. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/113 "2011-07-04T20:51:58Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > You’re aware that the House of Saud has literally thousands of members, right? ([Wiki says seven thousand.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_saud)) When a member of the Saudi royal family does something, that’s not necessarily the same as the Saudi government doing something. > > (That said, it’s not clear that the Taliban could have “handed over” Al Qaeda —I’ve never really felt toppling their government for Al Qaeda’s actions was legitimate, though I doubt that any other course would have been politically feasible.) Right. Well, maybe not, but they could have stopped actively training Al Qaeda operatives in open training camps, paid for & run by the Taliban. And, they could have said that they couldn’t hand over Osama, instead of refusing to do so. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/114 "2011-07-04T22:33:42Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > To keep it simple, let’s start with the unambiguous prohibition on the international use of force as set forth by the UN Charter. The only exceptions are self-defense and UN Security Council authorization, neither of which applies in this scenario. Hence, the invasion was and continues to be illegal. Readers should be aware that Commissar has gone on record and stated that one can never state that a military action violates international laws and/or is illegal unless an international judge has already ruled on it. As such, he has refused his own claim that the war is “illegal”. And it is curious to see that he is making such a definitive claim after so forcefully denying that anybody can ever do so. Commissar has also gone on record stating that the “self defense” clause is so broad that a nation does not have to be threatened in fact, nor even believe that they are or were being threatened. As such, he has refuted his claim that self defense does not apply. And it is curious to see that he is making such a definitive claim after so forcefully arguing that self defense has nothing at all to do with a nation defending itself and. Ah well. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/115 "2011-07-04T22:46:13Z")
> [@Marquez](#): > > Through waging war? Through waging preventative war and driving back aggression (see for instance Persian Gulf War I > [@Latro](#): > > IOW, you got demoralised and retreated. Not demoralized. Maybe the cost wasn’t worth it. > [@](#): > > You lost. The South Vietnamese lost. > [@](#): > > The American Empire is an enemy of world peace. Cite? > [@](#): > > I agree too. If it hadn’t been for the politicians stabbing the soldiers in the back, there would never have been such a shameful peace treaty. > As a non-consequence these monsters would not have risen to power, I suspect. And replaced by impractical idiots with a Pre-Pearl Harbour mentality (ie ultra paleocons and libertarians) or pacifist cowards who wouldn’t sneeze at a Soviet. > [@gonzomax](#): > > I love it when people cling to the idea we won or could win. We fight against nations with no navies, no air force . We fly the skies with no defense against our planes. We bomb when and where we feel like. But we come home empty handed. Our country is morally and financially bankrupt afterwards. > Countries fight very hard against foreign invaders. Patience and attrition are on their side, especially when we can not even define what a victory is. > When will we ever learn? We win most of these wars, we feel that way due to rabble-rousers at home. > [@gonzomax](#): > > I feel sorry for the soldiers. They are taken far from home and told to fight in wars that make no sense.We are not defending the homeland from invaders. Although the last few have had oil. That must be a coincidence. We of course are involved in Libya and Somalia. They also have oil. We hate Iran and Venezuela. They have oil and wont let us control it. They make no sense to fanatics of various stripes (both on the extreme right and left) And in most cases we were driving back attackers and invaders in America. Plus in Libya not a single American life has been lost and in Somalia we do not have any boots on the ground just the occasional bombing mission or pirate-hunt. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/116 "2011-07-04T22:55:07Z")
Back to the notion of the illegality of the wars… How can 20-somethings be expected to judge that? They aren’t lawyers and by no means do they have the authority to declare this or that illegal. Yeah, if the command is, “Scalp these prisoners”, a soldier may have clear grounds to resist. But if the command is, “Hey soldier, time to go to war! Your enemy is _x_.” how the heck are individual soldiers going to have any confidence in declaring _that_ illegal? Again, politicians make the call, and the courts decide what’s legal. Soldiers follow orders. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/117 "2011-07-04T23:03:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > How are we currently fighting a war in Somalia? It is coming. I read that Somalia attacked a town in Egypt. That is opening a door for us. [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/02/world/africa/02somalia.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/02/world/africa/02somalia.html) We are using drones in Somalia though. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/118 "2011-07-04T23:17:44Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Actually, it was those people doing the demonizing and deriding of US soldiers that prolonged the Vietnam debacle and told the world that the US military did not have the strength from its people to see a military campaign through to its conclusion. It certainly brought into question the value of US democracy as well. Hence it is taking longer and longer for wars to complete and the world has no respect or fear of American military might. Many more lives have been lost as a result. > > People who attempt to demoralize the troops, are simply traitors and assholes. I have no problem with people advocating opposition to a war. That is part of the political process. There is nothing political about undermining the morality of your armed forces. A lot of conservative people have a DISTINCT tendency to conflate opposition to a war with undermining the morality (morale, I bet you meant) of the armed forces. That is why “support the troops” is such a popular sentiment among them – it’s a subtle way of supporting a war. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/119 "2011-07-04T23:21:07Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I don’t know about you, but I personally do not believe that a society should ever be expected to set policies based on fear of its own armed forces. I don’t think you will find many who disagree with you. But here in the USA, our armed forces formed from regular every day people. It is not some privileged permenent warrior caste. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727/120 "2011-07-04T23:24:30Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I don’t know about you, but I personally do not believe that a society should ever be expected to set policies based on fear of its own armed forces. Who mentioned fear? I didn’t. Helping soldiers feel a part of mainstream society keeps them attached to the norms of that society and prevents them from becoming simple killing machines, especially with regard to their own people. I don’t think the Egyptians think of the army as their own people out of fear, not do I think Americans think of soldiers as Americans first and soldiers second out of fear. Good for the soldiers, good for their society. Bad for dictators. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-little-hate-for-the-us-soldiers/587727.md?page=7)