Why so many different treatments for overweight/obesity?

I think I misunderstood you. Are you saying that burning more calories than you take in as part of a regime of eating less and exercise doesn’t actually work even if it is followed? Because there is absolutely nothing in the WEBMD article to support that. But if your point is that the programs don’t work because people don’t stick with them, well, then we’re back to your baseless dismissal of the reason why they don’t work as having any relevance.

You really need to get over this persecution complex you got going if you want to get anywhere in an actual debate.

5% is a pretty significant number. It’s not the majority, but it also shows that these are not statistically rare events.

And that is why it’s foolish to say that this weight control methodology “does not work.” People who make that claim are painting with a brush that’s large enough to cover the state of Texas.

Right, and students have always been told that they need to study hard. The majority do not, despite all these exhortations. Does this mean that studying hard does not work.

The method works perfectly well when people use it. No method is going to work when people don’t apply it. That much should be painfully obvious.

It seems to me that the ones that fail at the simple solution of “eat less, exercise more” are the ones that associate that only with weight loss, and not with healthy lifestyle. If you are only going treat the symptoms and not the cause, you aren’t going to achieve long term success.

Ergo, many people can and do lose weight by eating less and exercising more, only to stop following that prescription once they have achieved the goal of weight loss and ultimately gaining the weight back. Those that continue to eat less and exercise more remain a lot healthier in the long term because it’s no longer about weight loss, but about maintaining a healthy lifestyle.

I guess I’ll ask again. Why? I suppose for the morbidly obese, actually burning calories is tough, but for those still capable of movement, do you doubt that taking less calories in than you burn will result in weight loss?

Tell ya what, Gestalt. Why don’t you find someone in this thread who claims that all we have to do is say “eat less, exercise more” for people to start getting fit? Once you do that, then you’ll have a position that you can legitimately attack using your rhetoric.

Until then, you’re attacking a position that nobody here is advocating.

See, I disagree with you on a fundamental level.
The answer isn’t some new miracle cure, it’s curing you (which may take psychological help. (This is a general you, not you personally)

The one thing that works is to change your eating and exercise habits (across the board, it works)

Until that is changed, no miracle cure is going to rear it’s beautiful head and proclaim all the obese people ‘cured’

It stops working because they stop doing it.

If a diabetic stops taking insulin because his blood glucose is normal, then within 24 hours, his blood glucose will rise again, and within a week, it will be at a very dangerous level.

If a chemotherapy patient doesn’t keep coming in for chemotherapy, the tumor will start growing again.

If a hypertensive patient stops taking his antihypertensives, her blood pressure will go up again.

If a person stops taking her antibiotics when she feels better, the infection will return.

If a person stops eating as many or fewer calories than he uses in activity, then the weight will return.

Obesity isn’t different from any other chronic condition in this regard. Stop using the intervention, and the condition returns.

I really like DSeid’s approach, especially the part about emphasizing 10% weight loss for health reasons, rather than dieting to be thin. While we really don’t understand why, losing 10% of your weight, no matter how overweight you are, really has a significant positive impact on your health. So when I was at 250 pounds, I could either decide to lose 125 pounds to be at a healthy weight (that’s tooooo haaaaaard!) or I could decide to lose 25 pounds to be significantly healthier than I was. That was actually pretty easy! (And I in fact lost, and have kept off for more than a year with no effort at all, 50 pounds. Sorry, I know this isn’t supposed to be a bragging thread, but I’m bragging!) Am I still obese? You betcha. But I’m much healthier than I was at 250. And that isn’t nearly sooooo haaaaard!

Oh, and as for why there isn’t a better weight loss drug on the market right now, it’s because we haven’t figured out how to make one that doesn’t kill people. That’s because most of them are some sort of stimulant, and stimulants do dangerous things to the circulatory system, like giving people hypertension, heart damage, heart attacks and strokes.

(Although personally, I really wish they’d reconsider the caffeine/ephedra combination that was found to be “too dangerous” a few years ago. In my not so humble opinion, it didn’t kill nearly as many people as obesity does, and it was very effective.)

Just to put that number in perspective for you, an improvement rate of 5% is significantly lower than the typical rate of improvement for virtually any other attempted behavioral change. There really isn’t any statistically significant difference between no intervention at all and medical weight loss plans. It might as well be a placebo. The bottom line is that people who are really, really, really motivated to lose weight will probably succeed regardless of the tools they have at their disposal. That is true for quitting smoking, sobering up, or pretty much any other behavioral change people want to make.

[QUOTE=JThunder]
And that is why it’s foolish to say that this weight control methodology “does not work.” People who make that claim are painting with a brush that’s large enough to cover the state of Texas.
[/QUOTE]

Gestalt and Hamlet aren’t even really disagreeing, I don’t think. It’s like the tale of the blind monks and the elephant… everyone has a different piece of the elephant and is thus describing it differently, but if you would all put your pieces together you’d have the whole elephant.

The ‘‘whole elephant’’ as I see it, is this. Weight gain is a very pernicious* behavioral problem*. Unfortunately as a society we tend to associate behaviors with moral judgment instead of acknowledging how profoundly environment and genetics and so on influence behavior. That’s part of the reason there’s such a stigma against being fat.

It’s also part of the reason overweight people resist acknowledging that they have a behavioral problem. Because that implies that it’s their ‘‘fault’’ that they are overweight and therefore worthy of derision. But the reality is not so simple. Obesity is statistically correlated with mental illness as well as poverty - in fact, a recent study found that people who lived with food insecurity - not knowing where their next meal would come from or when they would next eat - were fatter compared to the general population. This is because the most logical option when you only get to eat once a day is to eat as many calories as possible for the cheapest amount of money possible. Also, we know that the longer someone goes without eating, the more calories they are likely to consume. Therefore it makes at least some level of sense that people can be both hungry and obese. In the extremely impoverished area my agency serves (the poorest census tract in the state of Pennsylvania) the obesity rate is hovering near 50% in adults and 40% in children.

So mental illness and poverty are just two confounding factors, but there are plenty more. It would be easy to say that people are fat because they are lazy, and yet, Americans work more hours than most other developed countries and we work more hours than we ever have in recent history. I therefore don’t buy the idea that Americans as a whole are getting lazier and this explains our fatness.

And yet… and yet… we’re still dealing with a behavioral problem. Whether it’s because of lack of access to healthy foods or being overworked or being addicted to food, the bottom line is people are taking in too many calories and burning too few. If we could lock everyone in a cage and feed them nutrition pills like in the Jetsons, they’d lose weight. The problem is where free will comes into play - the choices people make that keep them fat. That is the reality.

But the other reality is that we don’t really understand why it’s so hard for the majority of people to change their eating behavior. We have hints - like the study that indicated rats were willing to work harder for sugar, fat, and salt than they were for cocaine - but we have failed to really come up with a specific intervention that facilitates the long-term behavioral change that leads to weight-loss.

The answer to treatment, as I see it, is how do we address the behavior? One roudabout way is through cognition - and there are some promising results in clinical trials using cognitive therapy for weight-loss. In one Swedish trial the majority of participants using cognitive therapy had actually continued to lose weight at one year post follow-up. I am currently trying out this method myself, as a person who has been maintaining a 40 pound weight loss for some years now but still has 20 or so to lose. I have gained and lost the same damn 15 pounds about four times in the last two years.

The problem isn’t that I ‘‘don’t know how’’ to lose weight - I absolutely know how - plan out my meals every day, count calories, exercise regularly, etc. - the problem is sustaining those changes in the long term. The problem is how I react to stressful events with depression and feeling overwhelmed and the occasional downright apathy that sabotages those efforts. The problem is when I come home absolutely exhausted and starving and convince myself that I MUST EAT NOW and don’t have time to cook. The problem is when I get so down I can barely move off the couch much less contemplate a 3 mile run. These are absolutely behavioral problems I must address, but they are clearly changes I have yet to achieve despite an impressive personal history of making behavioral changes in the face of enormous obstacles.

What this book claims to do is get at the heart of all those breaking points and prevent little lapses from spiraling out of control. It’s also about adjusting your expectations for how quickly you will lose weight and how to respond when progress stalls, as one of the key problem with losing weight is that it becomes significantly less reinforcing after the first few weeks and the rate of weight loss begins to slow. It’s about changing the way you think about eating and food. I have all these Response Cards written up to respond to sabotaging thoughts and hunger and cravings. I’ve done all these exercises – one required me to skip lunch deliberately just so I could learn to tolerate the feeling of hunger and learn that it’s not an emergency. One required me to deliberately serve myself more food than I could eat and then once I finished my allotted portion, throw out the rest. One of the cards is supposed to say ‘‘Oh Well, I may not like this but it’s what I have to do to lose weight.’’ I just wrote ‘‘Tough Shit’’ on my card because that’s more my style.

I’m a pretty smart person, but these techniques were not at all intuitive to me.

So yes, obviously, eating less and exercising more works for weight-loss. But it’s a tad disingenuous to imply that means we’ve come up with a wonderful solution for our nation’s obesity problem. Obviously some people are great at losing weight, but the vast majority of us need concrete tools and resources to get over these hurdles.

Sorry for the DP - I missed one of my main points, which is that the specific mechanisms that perpetuate my own unskillful behavior may be vastly different than the mechanisms that perpetuate those of other individuals. So ‘‘eat less, burn more’’ is unhelpfully vague in that it fails to account for the ‘‘black box’’ between stimulus X and behavior Y. My Aunt, for example, struggles with binge eating and is a former bulimic who still fails to recognize her bulimia was a problem. She thinks about food in ways I can’t comprehend. There’s no reason for a second I’m going to believe what works for me is going to work for her.

Because our bodyweight and fat levels are regulated. When a person starts losing weight various hormone changes start to occur. Less T4 is converted to T3. Less leptin is produced. More ghrelin is produced. More enzymes that are used to synthesize bodyfat are transcribed, etc. Asking someone to consciously regulate that system is like asking them to consciously regulate their breathing or blinking, most people can’t do it for long until willpower gives out and it just happens unconsciously.

Dozens of biochemical measures start activating to make you regain the lost weight. People can lose weight, but they can’t keep it off. As of yet there are no long term studies on long term weight maintenance (20-40% of weight loss) since we don’t know how to do it. There are thousands of studies about successful weight loss where a person takes drug XYZ or does diet XYZ and loses weight. But there are no studies (as far as I know) about people losing signifigant amounts of weight and keeping it off for 5-10 years.

Taking in less calories than you burn will cause weight loss but achieving that as weight is lost is increasingly difficult. Several reasons for that, all of which relate to the role of adipose tissue as a homeostatic endocrine organ. As fat is lost a variety of compounds are released that simultaneously increase the drive to eat and decrease both the basal metabolic rate and decrease the amount of incidental movement that burns calories. The number of calories burned goes down and the drive to consume goes up. Yes it is possible to exercise so much more as to burn significantly more calories and to resist eating when hungry, but keeping that up for years, when your body is telling you not to, is very hard to do. Again, not impossible, but difficult enought that accomplishing it is a notable exception. Doing that to the level of losing 20% of ones weight requires much more will power and discipline than most people, of any BMI, have.

If that advice works then go fund a study on it. Gather 10,000 highly motivated people from all ethnic, educational and geographic regions. Then give them your advice, help them lose 30% of their initial bodyweight and keep it off for 10 years. Judges, lawyers, scientists, professors, doctors, etc. See if they can lose large amounts of weight and keep it off for 10 years. Almost none will be able to no matter how motivated they are. The part of the brain that governs willpower is fairly recent in evolution. Nutrition regulation is much older.

It is like if I said I’ve invented a cure for STDs and abortion. Just follow 3 rules.

Never have sex outside of marriage
Never have sex unless it is for for procreation
Never procreate unless you can handle being a parent

If people follow that advice STDs and abortions would disappear. And the medical community and public spend decades slamming their heads into the walls trying to get it to work, ignoring all the studies showing 98% failure rates. Then things like the condom, antibiotics and birth control were invented and that took care of the unwanted side effects of sex. The same thing will happen with obesity.

Umm, STD’s and abortions still haven’t disappeared even with your ‘miracle cures’?

If what you posit is the only thing that works and is prescribed by doctors everywhere and people fail to do them, are you then telling me that it is the fault of the market that there isn’t a different cure for those ails?

My advice fails because people won’t follow it. The advice itself works.

In the interest of fairness, Wesley Clark, I’d like to point out that your prescribed cure is overkill. You said,

One need not have sex only for procreation in order to avoid having abortions. One could just as well have sex without specifically intending to have children, while simultaneously being willing to accept the responsibilities of parenthood – or placing the child up for adoption, if necessary. I think it’s pretty clear that the prescribed cure stacks the deck against itself needlessly.

In contrast, it is NOT overkill to say that fat loss will require discipline, exercise, and caloric control. Is this ‘cure’ difficult? For many, it is… but that doesn’t make it overkill, nor does it make it unreasonable.

For the record, I go to the gym regularly where I lift weights and jog on a treadmill. I’m not being sensitive on behalf of myself, I just think people who can look at the data and not see what is happening are being willfully blind, for a number of reasons. For the record, I think exercise is a lot more useful than dieting to maintain health, although both are excellent. I think both are good whether you use lose weight or not. Also, I feel that regularly exercising is a lot easier to do than dieting.

But it’s just dumb to think that dieting and exercise can cure being overweight, for most people. All the evidence says it cannot, for 90-95 %. It can work for 5-10 percent, and huzzah for them, but that leaves 90 percent out in the cold. Like others, I think we will eventually figure out how to handle weight loss effectively. Until then I am not gonna be one to guilt others out by calling them weak or lacking in willpower. It’s just cheap superiority, and frankly, I can afford the expensive kind of superiority.

I completely agree, it is hundreds of times easier to not get overweight in the first place than it is to lose the weight after you become overweight. After all, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure snicker. Much of the future fight against obesity needs to focus on having children/teenagers/young adults eat healthier and exercise, which is also a ton easier if their parents are eating healthy and exercising. I don’t think the endocrine system of children has changed that dramatically in the last 20 years, but we now have a nigh but pandemic rise in childhood obesity. Yes, it’s hard to lose weight and keep it off, especially once you’ve become overweight.

Losing it is not the issue. Keeping it lost is.

And for people with real obesity issues, keeping it off generally means trading in the mindset of a compulsive eater for the mindset of an anorexic. Not the body…the mental process: a perpetual, 24/7 lifelong obsession and preoccupation with every morsel of food that you might consider eating.

This is not simple, not easy, and for most people, simply not possible. Which is why it shouldn’t be the goal. The goal should be to strive to improve the nutrition and diet by finding ways to enjoy more healthful food (not enjoyable is completely doomed), find ways to enjoy movement and activity, and address any emotional issues.

It would be tremendously helpful if people with weight issues weren’t treated like worthless garbage because they are fat.