# Why so many "Smiths"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 14, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025 "2009-04-14T02:56:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/21 "2009-04-14T14:35:19Z")
Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/22 "2009-04-14T16:39:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The most common English surnames are [here](http://genealogy.about.com/od/surname_meaning/a/english.htm) > > 1. SMITH > 2. JONES > 3. WILLIAMS > 4. TAYLOR > 5. BROWN > 6. DAVIES > 7. EVANS > 8. WILSON > 9. THOMAS > 10. JOHNSON I would consider three of those–Jones, Evans, and Johnson–to be essentially the same name. They all mean Son of John (Evan being a Welsh form of John). ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/23 "2009-04-14T17:52:11Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And when added together, the various spellings of the Old French word “Lefevre” (Lefebure, Le Fevre, Lefebvre, etc..) are also the most common names in France. It can’t be just by random chance that the word for “smith” would be a very common/the most common family name in a variety of countries. \*\* RealityChuck\*\* got it right, AFAIK. There were a lot of smiths, but generally only one in a village, so that was making for a very convenient name. I believe it’s true of Russian as well – “Kuznetsov”, meaning “Smith”, is one of the most common names. Ed ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/24 "2009-04-14T18:16:36Z")
I’m wondering why Abbott is a fairly common surname. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/25 "2009-04-14T18:22:30Z")
Yeah, that’s gotta be tough to explain to the Pope. “I’m an Abbot, my father was an Abbot, and _his_ father was an Abbot. Oh wait…” ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/26 "2009-04-14T18:38:51Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I believe it’s true of Russian as well – “Kuznetsov”, meaning “Smith”, is one of the most common names Likewise Ḥaddād in Arabic, or Sedaris in Greek, or Kovács in Hungarian, or Ferrari/Ferraro in Italian, or Herrera in Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/27 "2009-04-14T18:41:52Z")
If google is any guide, I’m the only Bryan Ekers on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/28 "2009-04-14T19:36:21Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s been happening somewhat in India, where until recently many families did not use surnames, and now there are surnames like Merchant or Engineer. In English. I’ve even heard tell of one gentleman who’s officially named Mr. Javaprogrammer. **Biffy** , it had never occurred to me that Evans is an equivalent to Johnson, but now that you point it out, it’s obvious. > [@](#): > > If google is any guide, I’m the only Bryan Ekers on Earth. Back when I was a kid, I truly and honestly believed that I was the last male carrier of my last name on Earth, and was very relieved when one of my uncles had a kid. Since then, I’ve discovered that there’s an entire large branch of the family that Dad had always left out of the genealogies due to a family feud some generations back, plus multiple other waves of immigrants that chose the same Americanization we did, plus a fair number with the name in Germany, plus an assortment of close variations on the name. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/29 "2009-04-14T22:28:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Why so many “Smiths”? Because he managed to clone himself by assimilating all humans in the Matrix. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/30 "2009-04-14T23:46:10Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > I would consider three of those–Jones, Evans, and Johnson–to be essentially the same name. They all mean Son of John (Evan being a Welsh form of John). They may have the same origin, but that doesn’t make them the same name. The geographic distribution of them within Britain makes that clear, with Evans being _very_ Welsh. Unless you want to also argue that ‘Juan’, ‘Eoin’ and ‘Ivan’ are the same 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/31 "2009-04-15T02:06:52Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > They may have the same origin, but that doesn’t make them the same name. The geographic distribution of them within Britain makes that clear, with Evans being _very_ Welsh. Unless you want to also argue that ‘Juan’, ‘Eoin’ and ‘Ivan’ are the same 😉 Since the context of this discussion _is_ the origin of the names, yes, I would consider (not “argue”) that names that are patronymics based on John (or its local equivalent) are essentially the same name, just as all the “smith” names in various languages mentioned here are fundamentally the same thing. BTW, isn’t Jones _also_ very Welsh? ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/32 "2009-04-15T03:27:07Z")
Didn’t Miller have a negative connotation in England at one point - hence it becoming unpopular unlike the German version? I have a vague uncitable memory of dodgy scales up at the mill. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/33 "2009-04-15T03:58:51Z")
The Hebrew word for smith, _nappaḥ_, is very rare as a Hebrew surname. Probably because the language was revived for the modern age right when automobiles made blacksmithing essentially obsolete. It may be that the few Napachs in the phone book used to be Schmidts or Kowalskis etc., and translated the name into Hebrew when that became the Zionist thing to do, like the guy named Green who changed his name to Ben-Gurion. (OK, that example wasn’t a translation but a phonetically similar word. I’m pretty sure there were outright surname translations into Hebrew, I just can’t think of any offhand right now.) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/34 "2009-04-15T04:13:49Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s simply a matter of breeding. And, as we all know, the smith, a mighty man is he. > [@](#): > > Yeah, that’s gotta be tough to explain to the Pope. “I’m an Abbot, my father was an Abbot, and _his_ father was an Abbot. Oh wait…” Or, for that matter, the name Pope. Or Bishop. The French equivalents, _Lefebvre_, _Lefèvre_, and other spellings such as _Fabre, Favre,_ and _Faure_, are also pretty common - _Lefebvre_ is apparently the 13th most common name in France. (The modern French word is _forgeron_, although _febvre_, from Latin _faber_, survives in _orfèvre_, “goldsmith.”) (While we’re on the subject, _Lévesque_, “the bishop,” is also a common name.) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/35 "2009-04-15T04:26:44Z")
According to [this](http://www.nom-famille.com/nom-lefebvre.html), these are the most common names in France: 1. Martin 236 172 (given name) 2. Bernard 131 901 (given name) 3. Thomas 119 078 (given name) 4. Dubois 114 001 (“of the wood”) 5. Durand 111 510 (given name - not very popular anymore) 6. Robert 106 161 (given name) 7. Moreau 103 056 (“swarthy” - literally “Moor-like”) 8. Petit 95 876 (“little”) 9. Simon 95 733 (given name) 10. Michel 93 581 (given name) 11. Leroy 88 722 (“the king”) 12. Laurent 85 243 (given name) 13. Lefebvre 82 670 (“smith”) 14. Bertrand 75 030 (given name) 15. Roux 74 955 (“redhead”) ---
**Author:** ![Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alive_At_Both_Ends)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/36 "2009-04-15T13:04:57Z")
> [@Bob55](#): > > But no matter how many smiths there were in ancient times, they could not have competed with ‘farmer’… Yes they could. In the 14th Century, when most English people adopted surnames, a “farmer” signified a landowner rather than someone who actually worked the land. The very common Indian surname Patel means “farmer”, though. And these days there are more Patels in England than Smiths. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/37 "2009-04-15T15:28:04Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > BTW, isn’t Jones _also_ very Welsh? The scale of Welshness? ap Evan Bevan Bevans Jones Johnson ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/38 "2009-04-15T16:06:23Z")
> [@Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](#): > > Yes they could. In the 14th Century, when most English people adopted surnames, a “farmer” signified a landowner rather than someone who actually worked the land. Actually, precisely the opposite was the case. The modern sense of ‘farmer’ as a general term for someone who cultivates land dates back only to the late sixteenth century. Earlier it had instead meant either a tenant or someone else who cultivated land on behalf of the owner. In other words, in the fourteenth century a ‘farmer’ was always someone who was not the landowner. This reflected the original meaning of the word ‘farm’, which was to rent something for a fixed sum. (Incidentally, I wouldn’t assume that it is self-evident that smiths outnumbered landowners in fourteenth-century England. Not that it matters much, not least because landowners tended not to acquire occupational surnames anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/39 "2009-04-15T16:20:47Z")
> [@Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](#): > > And these days there are more Patels in England than Smiths. Not according to any list so far produced here or that I’ve found through Google. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025/40 "2009-04-15T16:32:11Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Or, for that matter, the name Pope. Or Bishop. The theory I’ve heard is that these (as well as “King”) were mocking nicknames, of the flavor, “Who does that guy think he is, the Pope?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-so-many-smiths/493025.md?page=3)