# Why Softball? Why Not Baseball? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 28, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578 "2005-07-28T13:47:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/21 "2005-07-28T16:43:19Z")
> [@anson2995](#): > > The enthusiasm didn’t last very long, however, and know it seems to have completely disappeared. I’m here to report, on the basis of personal experience, that there is indeed a women’s professional baseball league (the [NAWBL](http://www.nawbl.com/index.cfm?ac=main)), and it exists solely (as far as I can tell) at Fraser Field in Lynn, Massachusetts. They could use some help with their attendance, let me tell you. It’s free, by the way. Someone else mentioned the King and His Court – they’re appearing at the aforementioned Fraser Field in two weeks, in conjunction with the Lady Spirit baseball team. ---
**Author:** ![Airblairxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Airblairxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airblairxxx)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/22 "2005-07-28T16:44:31Z")
> [@Phish Head](#): > > Dude, I’m not saying that they can’t throw well underhanded. It seems, by forcing them to throw underhanded, where you have less control of the ball, and less velocity, that it’s demeaning. Like, we can’t trust you to throw overhanded, because you are a girl, therefore, we will force you to throw underhanded. Hitting a fastpitch softball is much harder than it seems, because the mound is so much closer than a baseball mound. Basically, the batter has about the same time to react whether s/he is hitting a baseball or a softball. ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/23 "2005-07-28T16:45:43Z")
> [@anson2995](#): > > Almost all of those rules have been dropped or adapted, save for the use of a fourth outfielder and the absence of a pitching mound (which is impractical for underhanded pitchers). > > Softball was originally played with a ball that was larger and softer. Now, it’s just as hard as a baseball, and only slightly bigger. Girls and women use an 11 inch ball, while a baseball is typically 9 inches in diameter. Because it is bigger, a softball is easier for beginners to learn to hit. It also makes it harder to throw, particularly for pre-teen girls with small hands. Almost, but not quite. First of all fast pitch only has three outfielders. There is no 10th defensive player except in slow pitch (and 10 & Under age group) Regarding the ball, colleges don’t play with an 11 inch ball, they play with a 12 inch ball, that is (like you said) very hard. Hard enough where they had to soften it up because it was becoming too dangerous. The Amateur Softball Association (The National Governing Body of Softball) now limits fast pitch balls to have a COR (coefficient of restitution, i.e. how ‘bouncy’ the ball is) that must be less than .47, and the compression must be lest than 375 lbs. Ball compression is defined as the amount of force necessary to compress a softball 0.64 cm (0.25 in) and is measured in N/0.64 cm. (lbs/0.25 in). The 11 inch ball is used for ages 6 to 10. In slow pitch play some still occasionally use a 16 inch ball. ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/24 "2005-07-28T16:50:29Z")
> [@anson2995](#): > > I don’t believe that the underhand motion is any less natural than the overhand throwing motion. Frankly, it’s a lot easier to teach 10 year old girls to pitch than 10-year old boys. The motion is much less complex for girls, and my observation is that the girls have more velocity, not less. I also don’t see any reason to think that the underhanded throwing motion means they have less control. Because their pitching angle tends to be more consistent, I’d actually expect they’d have greater control. > > I’d also add that because they are not throwing from an elevated mound, softball pitchers can throw pitches that rise as they approach the plate, something that can’t be done by a baseball pitcher. > > I do, however, agree holeheartedly with your general premise – there’s no reason that girls can’t or shouldn’t play baseball. Fast pitch pitching is a natural motion. A typical baseball injury for a pitcher is to “throw their arm out”, that never happens in fast pitch. if fast pitch pitchers have a related injury, it’s their knees. ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/25 "2005-07-28T17:02:36Z")
> [@Phish Head](#): > > Looking back, I wasn’t very clear. By “control”, I meant “control over what the ball does; It’s movement”. > > A baseball thrown overhand has much more movement than a softball thrown underhand. My original point was that I see no reason why a girl shouldn’t be allowed to pitch in a manner that allows the ball to move more. I thought you were very clear (but I thought I was clear too when my previous post specifically mentioned the different pitches used in fast pitch). Regarding the “Much more movement” comment…What are you basing this on? As an umpire who’s officiated college level games, I can’t agree with that. > [@](#): > > And **Enright3** , I’m sorry, but throwing a ball, any ball, overhand allows for greater velocity, period. I never said it didn’t… but (to play devil’s advocate) what are you basing that on? “Because it just seems that way”? Anyway, I don’t have anything to concede on that, as I never said that fast pitch pitchers can throw just as fast as an overhand baseball pitcher. Men’s fast pitch pitchers typically throw in the 60s and 70s. Men’s baseball pitchers (adult league play, not professional so as to compare apples to apples) typicall throw in the 80s and 90s. ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/26 "2005-07-28T17:05:49Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > I’m here to report, on the basis of personal experience, that there is indeed a women’s professional baseball league (the [NAWBL](http://www.nawbl.com/index.cfm?ac=main)), and it exists solely (as far as I can tell) at Fraser Field in Lynn, Massachusetts. They could use some help with their attendance, let me tell you. It’s free, by the way. > > Someone else mentioned the King and His Court – they’re appearing at the aforementioned Fraser Field in two weeks, in conjunction with the Lady Spirit baseball team. Not only is there a professional women’s baseball leage, but there’s a [Professional Fastpitch Softball League](http://www.profastpitch.com/) too. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/27 "2005-07-28T17:10:07Z")
> [@Enright3](#): > > Almost, but not quite. First of all fast pitch only has three outfielders. There is no 10th defensive player except in slow pitch (and 10 & Under age group) My daughter’s junior high team plays four outfielders. Maybe that’s non-standard, but that’s what I based my answer on. FWIW, They also wear pants, while shorts seem to be the norm everywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/28 "2005-07-28T17:15:40Z")
> [@Enright3](#): > > Fast pitch pitching is a natural motion. A typical baseball injury for a pitcher is to “throw their arm out”, that never happens in fast pitch. if fast pitch pitchers have a related injury, it’s their knees. Neither under or overhanded pitching is a more “Natural motion” than the other. That term is meaningless. Man did not evolve to throw sliders. Pitching injuries in either baseball or fast-pitch softball are largely due to overuse, not the motion being inherently “unnatural.” This is especially problematic among kids, whose arms are still developing but who sometimes are asked to pitch preposterous numbers of innings. I’ve heard of kids pitching 50+ games in a season between house, All-Star, and tournament games. Placing a huge amount of strain on your arm over and over and over will hurt it. Both baseball and fast-pitch will cause pitching injuries, especially when pitchers are overworked. **anson2995 then said:** [/QUOTE] I’d also add that because they are not throwing from an elevated mound, softball pitchers can throw pitches that rise as they approach the plate, something that can’t be done by a baseball pitcher. [/QUOTE] Baseball pitchers can’t throw rise balls from flat ground, either; it has nothing to do with the mound. It’s simply not possible for a human being to throw a baseball hard enough, or with sufficient rotation, to cause the spin on the ball to completely overcome gravity. It’s also not possible for a softball pitcher, but a softball pitcher can throw the ball in an upwards trajectory, releasing it not far from the ground and aiming for a higher point. The ball’s not rising due to curve, it’s rising because you threw it that way. A few submarine-style baseball pitchers can do the same thing; Byung-Hung Kim can sure as hell throw a rise ball. But if you are pitching overhand, you’re throwing the ball downwards. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/29 "2005-07-28T17:26:32Z")
[QUOTE=Phish Head] Looking back, I wasn’t very clear. By “control”, I meant “control over what the ball does; It’s movement”. A baseball thrown overhand has much more movement than a softball thrown underhand. My original point was that I see no reason why a girl shouldn’t be allowed to pitch in a manner that allows the ball to move more. [QUOTE] I’m not an expert in pitching nor a physicist, but I have coached girls softball and I don’t believe this is true. Movement on the pitches comes from spin, and all of the pitches that are thrown overhand – two/four seam fastballs, curve, slider, change up – are a result of applying different spin. All of these can be thrown underhand. Overhand pitchers can throw a sinker. Underhand pitchers can throw a riser. I think the only pitch that can’t be thrown underhand is the knuckleball. ---
**Author:** ![Phish\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9adbd/32.png) [@Phish\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phish_Head)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/30 "2005-07-28T17:32:30Z")
> [@Enright3](#): > > I thought you were very clear (but I thought I was clear too when my previous post specifically mentioned the different pitches used in fast pitch). > Regarding the “Much more movement” comment…What are you basing this on? As an umpire who’s officiated college level games, I can’t agree with that. I’m basing it on my own personal observations, and on the number of different types of pitches. In softball you have about five different types of pitches: fastball, change, rise, drop, and curve. In baseball you have about twelve different types of pitches: four-seam fastball, cutter, splitter, forkball, sinker, knuckle curve, slurve, slider, screwball, palmball, circle change, and knuckleball. **More options, more ways to move the ball!** And it’s a shame girls don’t have the options available (at the HS and College level) to throw these types of pitches, competitively. ---
**Author:** ![Loopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loopus/32/15343_2.png) [@Loopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/31 "2005-07-28T18:57:16Z")
Some folks in this thread might find this Staff Report interesting: [Why do pitchers throw overhand in baseball but underhand in softball?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/munderha.html) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/32 "2005-07-28T19:08:20Z")
When I was a kid, I played little league (and sucked). I was basically forced out of little league because “girls can’t play baseball.” Later, I played one game of softball and hated it because hitting the ball hurt like hell and I couldn’t grip it to throw. It felt then like they deliberately put obstacles in the sport so that it would be difficult to excel at it. Not that I had a future anyway as a no-hit, no-range, accurate but weak armed shortstop! ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/33 "2005-07-28T19:46:11Z")
> [@Phish Head](#): > > I’m basing it on my own personal observations, and on the number of different types of pitches. > > In softball you have about five different types of pitches: fastball, change, rise, drop, and curve. > > In baseball you have about twelve different types of pitches: four-seam fastball, cutter, splitter, forkball, sinker, knuckle curve, slurve, slider, screwball, palmball, circle change, and knuckleball. > > **More options, more ways to move the ball!** > > And it’s a shame girls don’t have the options available (at the HS and College level) to throw these types of pitches, competitively. I just can’t agree that there are inherently fewer pitch options in softball. There may be a hundred different ways to grip a ball and throw it, but there are only so many ways for the ball to spin once it’s left your hand. Both overhanded and underhanded pitcher can throw a variety of fastballs, breaking balls, and offspeed pitches. I don’t think there’s any spin that can be applied to an overhand pitch that can’t be applied to an underhand pitch. I’m not sure that it’s altogether impossible to throw the knuckleball (which has no spin) underhanded either, though I’m not sure why you’d want to. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/34 "2005-07-28T20:11:13Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > When I was a kid, I played little league (and sucked). I was basically forced out of little league because “girls can’t play baseball.” Later, I played one game of softball and hated it because hitting the ball hurt like hell and I couldn’t grip it to throw. It felt then like they deliberately put obstacles in the sport so that it would be difficult to excel at it. > > Not that I had a future anyway as a no-hit, no-range, accurate but weak armed shortstop! Hey, if you improved the hitting a bit you could have been the David Eckstein of softball. 😃 Eckstein actually does a great job. He just doesn’t quite have a shortstop arm. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/35 "2005-07-28T20:34:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Neither under or overhanded pitching is a more “Natural motion” than the other. That term is meaningless. Man did not evolve to throw sliders. I gotta disagree with that. Man did evolve to throw tools. I’ve never seen a cave painting of a guy throwing his spear at the mamoth underhanded. And even in softball how often do you see the outfielders gun one to the plate underhanded, or turn a double play with an underhanded across the diamond? I don’t know crap about softball really, but Overhand is a more natural throw. ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/36 "2005-07-28T20:39:48Z")
Surely a larger ball is easier to hit than a smaller one? There seems to be an assumption that women would have a harder time hitting the ball. Additionally I always assumed that an assumption was being made that women needed to be fielding a softer ball, especially in the infield, so they wouldn’t be hurt by it. Especially as the balls used to be softer. no snickering! 😉 I’m not saying either assumption is correct, I just thought those were rationales. ---
**Author:** ![I\_can\_t\_believe\_that\_s\_butter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@I\_can\_t\_believe\_that\_s\_butter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_can_t_believe_that_s_butter)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/37 "2005-07-28T23:47:58Z")
> [@anson2995](#): > > I think the only pitch that can’t be thrown underhand is the knuckleball. My grandfather was a fash-pitch pitcher of some organization, and he speacialized in the knuckleball—at least, that’s what he called it. He held the ball, I’m told, with a “Rock On”/devil horn gesture, if you will, with the thumb around six o’ clock and the index and little fingers at 10 and 2 o’clock, more or less. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/38 "2005-07-29T01:44:23Z")
i coached girls fast pitch softball for ten years. my daughters both played from the time they were five. the level of play was pretty competitive, and my girls all played well. anecdote: one evening i showed up with my ten eleven and twelve year old girls to practice. in a scheduling conflict a team of boys the same age showed up to use the field at the same time. i suggested a scrimmage game, and the coach of the boy’s team laughed at me. we coninued the conversation out of earshot of the children, and i suggested a wager. again he laughed at me, but he had enough cash to cover my bet. after a three inning scrimmage game, i took my girls out for pizza with my winnings. the high point of the game: my ten year old daughter, (a head shorter than the rest of the girls, and weighing all of sixty pounds or so) stole home. the boy’s team catcher (and the son of the coach that laughed at us) blocked the plate. my daughter slid through safely, clipped his legs out from under him, jarred the ball loose and made him cry. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/39 "2005-07-29T02:06:52Z")
Baseball was originally pitched underhanded. From this page: > [@](#): > > 1873 Rules > The game in 1873 was similar to, yet in some ways very different than, baseball today. In the 1870s, fields were not perfectly flat and manicured and did not have dirt cut-outs between the bases; fielders did not use gloves; **pitchers pitched underhand to batters who were allowed to request high or low pitches** … (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578/40 "2005-07-29T02:15:47Z")
Overhand pitching wasn’t allowed in baseball until 1884. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-softball-why-not-baseball/314578.md?page=3)