# Why Star Trek (TOS) was a great franchise (and is now DEAD) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 17, 2008, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323 "2008-10-17T03:04:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/21 "2008-10-17T15:11:18Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > Hell, look at BSG… a good series, but a perfect example of how studio execs hedged their bets by going with a known quantity. Sure, the current series is quite a bit different from the early series, but going into the series premier, the name recognition was there and they knew a LOT of folks would watch just out of curiousity. Funny, but I ignored BSG until the continued rave reviews (about halfway through S1) drew me in BECAUSE of the old series. It was bad. All these nerds screaming about Starbuck being a woman? All the changes the evil Ron Moore was making to the canon? Who cares? The original show SUCKED ASS. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/22 "2008-10-17T15:22:01Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > _Western_?! > > Sigh. > > I get what you are saying, though, \*\*Petrobey Mavromihalis > > So not the same. Does anyone think that we could make another series, dedicated solely to exploration, that was not Star Trek? No “disenffranchised people living on the edge of society”, no “being rousted by hostile and extremely dangerous other”. Yes, many science fiction novelests do it all the time. The problem is in getting the 'tards that run the studios to go for the idea. One thing that _could_ work (if done properly) and AFAIK, hasn’t been really done in a series format is humans tearing around the solar system. Keep the tech fairly simple (say 10+ years more advanced than what we have now), hire decent writers and actors and go for it. Roddenberry pitched Star Trek as “Wagon Train in space,” there’s no reason we couldn’t do that in the solar system. Sure, you’re _not_ going to have aliens as a source of conflict, but there’s _plenty_ of human conflict that can be exploited. You can have nations vying for resources in space against one another, or you can put a multi-national crew on the same ship/base/station and hash out the conflicts which would naturally occur when you cram wildly different people into a small space. Add a dash of technical problems every now and then, and you’ve got drama. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/23 "2008-10-17T15:43:25Z")
My apologies, Tuckerfan, but your story holds absolutely no interest for me. If I wanted to hear about humans interacting with humans…there’s a gazillion stories out there. I want aliens and really wild unusual things or no go. The _2001_ series degenerated, IMO, into exactly this - a bunch of disgustingly annoying humans who couldn’t put aside their personal and selfish issues for three seconds in order to get something done. I am still disgusted when I think back to that series and how mad it made me. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/24 "2008-10-17T15:55:32Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > So not the same. Does anyone think that we could make another series, dedicated solely to exploration, that was not Star Trek? No “disenffranchised people living on the edge of society”, no “being rousted by hostile and extremely dangerous other”. The Babylon 5 spinoff, _Crusade_ was sort-of like that. Rather glum, though. And swiftly canceled, of course. ---
**Author:** ![De\_La\_Rue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@De\_La\_Rue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/De_La_Rue)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/25 "2008-10-17T16:19:34Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > _Western_?! > > Sigh. > > I get what you are saying, though, **Petrobey Mavromihalis**. > > So not the same. Does anyone think that we could make another series, dedicated solely to exploration, that was not Star Trek? No “disenffranchised people living on the edge of society”, no “being rousted by hostile and extremely dangerous other”. It all comes from a reaction to Star Trek. The idea of the producers is: “Hey! You know how in Star Trek the Federation is everywhere, but benevolent? In our show, why don’t we have an eeeeeeevil government that wants to oppress our heroes, and we can make all these points about the abuse of authority in government, and it’ll be awesome…” It makes sci-fi on TV a little monotonous, though. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/26 "2008-10-17T16:28:47Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > My apologies, Tuckerfan, but your story holds absolutely no interest for me. If I wanted to hear about humans interacting with humans…there’s a gazillion stories out there. I want aliens and really wild unusual things or no go. > > The _2001_ series degenerated, IMO, into exactly this - a bunch of disgustingly annoying humans who couldn’t put aside their personal and selfish issues for three seconds in order to get something done. I am still disgusted when I think back to that series and how mad it made me. Yes, well, most of _2010_ was just a set up for the deux ex machina (or should that be E.T. ex machina?) at the end. Remember, the aliens in the original Trek were just a candy shell to disguise the serious social issues of the day that Trek was addressing. Dealing with things like racism/sexism/etc. on prime TV back in the 60s was pretty risky. Trek allowed people to think about it, without actually _thinking_ about it, if you know what I mean. One of the ways you could structure the show is to have various groups leaving Earth and settling on Mars, the Moon and various asteriods for their own reasons. Some could be members of a religious sect, others could be out there for political reasons, still more could be scientific researchers, and another military forces. Interacting with all these groups could be traders, who are amoral wretches simply out to make a buck and having to get along with everyone and work out deals when Group A refuses to deal with Group B, but the only way the traders can make a profit is by selling what Group A produces to Group B. You get diversity, conflict, and you don’t necessarily have to have everyone acting like jackasses all the time. Done one way, you could simply file the serial numbers off of an episode of a TV show like _Law & Order_ one week, the next week file them off of a _M_A_S_H\*\* episode, then a _Tour of Duty_ episode, or a _Desperate Housewives_, or what have you. Done another way, you could have it be like _Wall Street_ and corporate greed. A third way (and one that would be the most difficult to keep it interesting, but would be utterly unique in TV, I think) would be to make it a faux-reality show. Sort of like _World’s Deadliest Catch_ (or whatever that show about Alaskan fishermen is called) in space. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/27 "2008-10-17T16:32:54Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Sure, \*\*you’re _not_ going to have aliens \*\*as a source of conflict, but there’s _plenty_ of \*\*human conflict \*\*that can be exploited. You can have nations vying for resources in space against one another, or you can put a multi-national crew on the same ship/base/station and hash out the **conflicts which would naturally occur when you cram wildly different people into a small space**. Add a dash of \*\*technical problems \*\*every now and then, and you’ve got drama. > [@Anaamika](#): > > My apologies, Tuckerfan, but your story holds absolutely no interest for me. I don’t know… sounds good. How 'bout we put the main character in some sort of freeze/hibernation for a while, and when he wakes up, have it be just him, some artificial intelligences, maybe some distant offspring of a lost character that has evolved far beyond recognition. Maybe a robot, too. They could be flying around with some sort of ramjet/ion propulsion system to keep things from getting too science-fictiony. Oh, and lots of vindaloo. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/28 "2008-10-17T16:58:17Z")
Vindaloo?! I hope that isn’t a reference to my ethnicity. :dubious: I could never eat vindaloo anyway, we say in my family that’s for crazy white people. It’s a joke, people, relax. Tucker I read your description with great care and while I admit your further exposition does make it more interesting, I can’t say it makes it perfect. Hmm. It bothers me because all of that stuff is happening, in real life. Why would I want to watch a TV show about it? I can already look around me and see people arguing over things like religion, trade, commerce, etc. What I want is the added element of the exotic. It’s hard to pin down, but let’s put it this way - if there isn’t magic I don’t really want any of it. Magic can mean robots, aliens, paranormal activity - what-have-you. The shows you listed; I don’t watch any of them. Buuuuuut…if you could somehow structure the show so people were neither jackasses nor stupid, then I might like it better. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/29 "2008-10-17T17:10:25Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > It bothers me because all of that stuff is happening, in real life. Why would I want to watch a TV show about it? I can already look around me and see people arguing over things like religion, trade, commerce, etc. What I want is the added element of the exotic. It’s hard to pin down, but let’s put it this way - if there isn’t magic I don’t really want any of it. Magic can mean robots, aliens, paranormal activity - what-have-you. Surely there’s no reason why that all can’t happen inside the solar system. It may sound like limited horizons compared to Star Trek, but consider the potential of diverse space stations; terraformed planets; asteroid mining; several dozen moons around Jupiter alone. Paranormal activity? Clarke’s Law comes to mind. Humanity, too, will diversify along with technology. It’s been a common complaint that aliens on TV series are too humanoid-- but what if they were all human to begin with, and diversified through genetic engineering, cybernetics, etc.? It actually makes a lot more sense that way. And of course, there’s no reason why there can’t be robots. Frankly that was one of my sore spots with Star Trek: too few robots. How are we supposed to know it’s the future if there are no robots? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/30 "2008-10-17T17:13:26Z")
True, Khan was human, just genetically modified, and in the movie at least he was one of the most interesting characters. (He was just smarmy in the TV episode.) Clarke’s Law? Please remind me of what you speak. As for robots, I want my robot butler already. :mad: Not a monkey butler though. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/31 "2008-10-17T17:19:43Z")
> [@De\_La\_Rue](#): > > It all comes from a reaction to Star Trek. The idea of the producers is: “Hey! You know how in Star Trek the Federation is everywhere, but benevolent? In our show, why don’t we have an eeeeeeevil government that wants to oppress our heroes, and we can make all these points about the abuse of authority in government, and it’ll be awesome…” > > It makes sci-fi on TV a little monotonous, though. Sounds like “Blake’s Seven”. I always liked that show. Sure the SFX were pathetic, but I liked the character interaction. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/32 "2008-10-17T17:19:50Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Clarke’s Law? Please remind me of what you speak. Any technology sufficiently advanced will be indistinguishable from magic. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/33 "2008-10-17T17:22:18Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Any technology sufficiently advanced will be indistinguishable from magic. I didn’t know that had an official title! I use it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/34 "2008-10-17T17:24:06Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > One of the ways you could structure the show is to have various groups leaving Earth and settling on Mars, the Moon and various asteriods for their own reasons. Some could be members of a religious sect, others could be out there for political reasons, still more could be scientific researchers, and another military forces. Interacting with all these groups could be traders, who are amoral wretches simply out to make a buck and having to get along with everyone and work out deals when Group A refuses to deal with Group B, but the only way the traders can make a profit is by selling what Group A produces to Group B. Have you ever played the old Turn based game [Alpha Centauri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Meier%27s_Alpha_Centauri)?🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/35 "2008-10-17T17:27:09Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Vindaloo?! I hope that isn’t a reference to my ethnicity. > :dubious: I could never eat vindaloo anyway, we say in my family that’s for crazy white people. > > It’s a joke, people, relax. Yes, so was the remark…it was a refernce to one of my faves, \*Red \*_Dwarf_. Good one. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/36 "2008-10-17T17:28:21Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > As for robots, I want my robot butler already. :mad: Not a monkey butler though. Yes, robot butlers, I think they’d be a great addition! (someone help me out here) ETA: thanks **Jolly Roger**! As for things already happening around us so there’s no need for SciFi, I think that, IMHO, is at the foundation of good science fiction. That is, through contrivances and situations that are difficult to arrange in mundane reality, certain aspects of humanity can be isolated, refined, and explicitly examined. In some ways it’s like setting up an experiment; you can hold many things the same and just change one element. Of course, a good writer can do so in any setting, but there are certain areas where good scifi can go with much greater ease and clarity. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/37 "2008-10-17T17:28:37Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > Have you ever played the old Turn based game [Alpha Centauri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Meier%27s_Alpha_Centauri)?🙂 Never even heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/38 "2008-10-17T17:32:57Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I didn’t know that had an official title! I use it all the time. Well then, the next time you’re struggling with the latest technological leap forward that seems to cause more trouble than it solves, remember Terrifel’s Corollary to Clarke’s Law: “In real life, magic doesn’t work.” ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/39 "2008-10-17T17:39:28Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Star Trek is exploration for the sake of exploration You and I clearly watched different versions of TOS… The one I watched, less than 20 of the 80 episodes are ‘exploration for exploration’s sake’ - and most of them, the exploration is nothing but a macguffin to kick off a fight with a monster. A slightly larger number have them entering uncharted space for some other reason - answering a distress call, chasing an enemy that attacked a Federation ship or outpost, looking for a lost Federation ship, forced there by aliens, etc. Being generous, there are 2 other episodes that can be called ‘exploration for exploration’s sake’, if you’re willing to stretch ‘exploration’ to include ‘scientific experimentation’ - the Changling and The Ultimate Computer, both of which involve the Enterprise taking part in an experiment involving a new computer. Even combining all of these gives less than half the series taking them out of known space - the other episodes are all dealing with problems within Federation (or Klingon, or Romulan, or non-aligned, but known) space. Opening voice-over notwithstanding, Star Trek, as a series, was never about exploration for exploration sake. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/40 "2008-10-17T17:51:53Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > The _2001_ series degenerated, IMO, into exactly this - a bunch of disgustingly annoying humans who couldn’t put aside their personal and selfish issues for three seconds in order to get something done. I am still disgusted when I think back to that series and how mad it made me. I charitably attribute this to Clarke’s increasing age. But the real problem I think was a failure of nerve. When Moonwatcher learned how to kill, the entire world changed. The book ends with Bowman as the Starchild echoing Moonwatcher’s thoughts after he understood that he and his tribe were now masters of the world. But the Solar System of the sequels, except for Europa, is the same as it would have been if the events of 2001 never had happened. And 3001 was a total copout - maybe Gentry Lee gave Clarke a sleeping pill and wrote it himself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323.md?page=3)