# Why Star Trek (TOS) was a great franchise (and is now DEAD) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 17, 2008, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323 "2008-10-17T03:04:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/41 "2008-10-17T17:53:29Z")
Well, I’m only 2/3 of the way through the first season. I’ll get back to you when I have finished it. But while what you say is true, I guess what I’m saying is this - BSG is all focused or based off of one issue: the Cylons. Star Trek could afford to be much more open-ended. I never said ST was that great. On the contrary, I also think it should be put peacefully to bed. If there is another series, I would like it to start on this premise of exploration, though. Sorry, I’ve not seen Red Dwarf. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/42 "2008-10-17T17:59:42Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Never even heard of it. Its just that the storyline you suggested was similar to the game’s story. It was a pretty fun game, and I think you’re idea would be a good one for a series. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/43 "2008-10-17T18:02:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I charitably attribute this to Clarke’s increasing age. But the real problem I think was a failure of nerve. When Moonwatcher learned how to kill, the entire world changed. The book ends with Bowman as the Starchild echoing Moonwatcher’s thoughts after he understood that he and his tribe were now masters of the world. But the Solar System of the sequels, except for Europa, is the same as it would have been if the events of 2001 never had happened. And 3001 was a total copout - maybe Gentry Lee gave Clarke a sleeping pill and wrote it himself. Pretty much my thoughts. I want to know what happens when the humans have to deal with Bowman as the Starchild, really. Reading about it on Wiki…Oh, i totally forgot some of the series I did like! Europa! Awesomeness. Jupiter turning into Lucifer. Dave and HAL both in the monolith. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/44 "2008-10-17T18:05:18Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Star Trek TOS was, I agree, pretty revolutionary. It was a non-anthology science fiction series that wasn’t aimed at kids – they made a big deal out of that in the original advertising, calling it an “adult” drama, meaning serious, not just sexual. I think they were distancing themselves from not only **Lost in Space** but also the 1950s science giction series like **Captain Video** that _were_ aimed at kids. True, but there was also \*\*Time Tunnel \*\*, more or less an adult show that was set up to be easy to write. Find some empty sets, dump Doug and Tony in the matching historical period, don’t change history, profit. (And writing this, I just realized that it was a clear ripoff of Mr. Peabody and Sherman.) > [@](#): > > One other way that Star Trek distanced itself was by using noted science fiction writers – Harlan Ellison, Robert Bloch, Norman Spinrad, Theodore Sturgeon all contributed scripts. One was based (sorta) on Fredric Brown (who got credit for it). Nobody knew who the hell David Gerrold was, but he wrote two scripts (and reportedly worked on others) and later became a pretty noted Sf author. The old Twilight Zone series had used scripts by noted SF authors (Richard Matheson and Charles Beaumont wrote a LOT of scripts. Ray Bradbury contributed one) and scripts based on stories by SF authors (like Damon Knight’s famous “To Serve Man”), but it’s a harder proposition to do it with a continuing cast. But they managed it, and I think part of the reason for the success was the use of quality material, with no pussyfooting around because they were afraid of alienating The Typical Viewer – they gave them straight science fiction, and found that people liked it. Despite Gene Roddenberry’s tendency to run everything through his Roddenberrry filter, and the way the network cut the budget in the last year, and the many cases of “hardening of the arteries” that Gerold described so well in his books on the series (How many scripts can you write where they encounter people being ruled by computers but don’t know it and have Spock defeat them with illogic?), despite all that, the series was immensely popular, to the point where there’s yet another movie based on it coming out now, forty years later. Serling respected the writers, and as an anthology show their stories (especially from sf writers who were also screenwriters) could be used with few modifications. Roddenberry had a harder time, which was to adapt the skills of the sf writers into his universe. **Amok Time** was I think the most successful example of this, taking Sturgeon’s interest in studying sex into the ST universe. Ellison showed the problems. I’ve read his original script, and I hate to say it, but Roddenberry was right. It was great, but not a part of the ST universe. The final one kept the crucial conflict from Ellison, which was a brilliant one. BTW, Jerome Bixby was yet another sf writer who did ST scripts, and some good ones. > [@](#): > > I really couldn’t get into the later series as much. You didn’t have SF writers contributing scripts, or stories based on SF stories. At the beginning, it seemed too derivative. Now, after forty years of this, the franchise is beginning to collapse under the weight of its history. At least the animated series had Larry Niven involved. Before the first movie was made, I saw Ellison on the Tomorrow Show talking about it. He recounted a story of how he and Roddenberry went to a studio exec to pitch the movie. The exec told them that he had read how the Mayans had met ancient astronauts. “Put in some Mayans” the guy said. I think by the time of the later TNG the Mayan lovers were in charge. Remember the show where alien abductions were real? Yikes. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/45 "2008-10-17T18:07:52Z")
I think the BSG spinoff “Caprica” will deal with human drama in a “not too distant future” setting. I like the colonization as a story backdrop idea. Most of the conflict driven by conflicting political, social or corporate entities. Like a BSG prequel that tells the story of the creation of the 12 colonies. > [@Terrifel](#): > > Surely there’s no reason why that all can’t happen inside the solar system. It may sound like limited horizons compared to Star Trek, but consider the potential of diverse space stations; terraformed planets; asteroid mining; several dozen moons around Jupiter alone. Paranormal activity? Clarke’s Law comes to mind. You should check out the anime seriew Cowboy Bebop. The series takes place in a solar system where Mars, Venus, and many of the Jovian moons have been terraformed and colonized (ironically the Earth is nearly depopulated after a massive explosion destroys part of the moon). It’s actually very similar to Firefly / Serenity in many ways. Also, no mention of the show Farscape? ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/46 "2008-10-17T18:28:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > …He recounted a story of how he and Roddenberry went to a studio exec to pitch the movie. The exec told them that he had read how the Mayans had met ancient astronauts. “Put in some Mayans” the guy said. I think by the time of the later TNG the Mayan lovers were in charge. Remember the show where alien abductions were real? Yikes. That poor studio exec had to wait until the most recent Indiana Jones movie to finally get his Mayans. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/47 "2008-10-17T18:28:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > At least the animated series had Larry Niven involved. If I recall correctly, Ellison had some harsh words (big surprise, I know) about Niven-- I think it was Niven-- boasting that he just re-sold one of his old short stories as a TV script just by changing the names of the main characters to “Kirk” and “Spock.” TAS was underrated for a long time. It seems like people are more accepting of it lately. I still don’t buy the inflatable starship decoy though. > [@](#): > > Before the first movie was made, I saw Ellison on the Tomorrow Show talking about it. He recounted a story of how he and Roddenberry went to a studio exec to pitch the movie. The exec told them that he had read how the Mayans had met ancient astronauts. “Put in some Mayans” the guy said. I think by the time of the later TNG the Mayan lovers were in charge. Remember the show where alien abductions were real? Yikes. In fairness, they also did the alien abduction thing in TOS, kinda sorta, with “Tomorrow is Yesterday.” Of course they eventually fixed things so it never happened in the first place, so maybe it doesn’t count anyway. “I never did believe in little green men…” :dubious: “Neither have I.” :eek: Goddamn, what a great show. TOS will never die. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/48 "2008-10-17T18:30:40Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Pretty much my thoughts. I want to know what happens when the humans have to deal with Bowman as the Starchild, really. > > Reading about it on Wiki…Oh, i totally forgot some of the series I did like! Europa! Awesomeness. Jupiter turning into Lucifer. Dave and HAL both in the monolith. That last made me very upset. It was clear from the first book that Bowman actually did travel to the stars. The fourth book seemed to imply that it was all an illusion from him being in the monolith. That was a real failure of nerve. He walked away from Childhood’s End into The Matrix. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/49 "2008-10-17T18:35:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > That last made me very upset. It was clear from the first book that Bowman actually did travel to the stars. The fourth book seemed to imply that it was all an illusion from him being in the monolith. That was a real failure of nerve. He walked away from Childhood’s End into The Matrix. It wasn’t a smooth transition or well done, but I liked the idea of the two of them interacting, ex-human, and machine, old enemies in a way, now reduced or increased to the same playing field and the same level. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/50 "2008-10-17T18:37:46Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > The _2001_ series degenerated, IMO, into exactly this - a bunch of disgustingly annoying humans who couldn’t put aside their personal and selfish issues for three seconds in order to get something done. I am still disgusted when I think back to that series and how mad it made me. Are you sure you’re not thinking of the Rama books? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/51 "2008-10-17T18:43:44Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > Are you sure you’re not thinking of the Rama books? Ha! Well-played sir, and they were pretty darn annoying, too, if not even more so than the 2001 series. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/52 "2008-10-17T18:44:01Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > In fairness, they also did the alien abduction thing in TOS, kinda sorta, with “Tomorrow is Yesterday.” Of course they eventually fixed things so it never happened in the first place, so maybe it doesn’t count anyway Assignment: Earth did the alien abduction thing without having the ‘aliens’ be the Enterprise - Gary Seven was the descendant of humans abducted by aliens centuries earlier. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/53 "2008-10-17T18:49:07Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > Are you sure you’re not thinking of the Rama books? Don’t be ridiculous. There weren’t any sequels to _Rama_. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/54 "2008-10-17T18:56:23Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > If I recall correctly, Ellison had some harsh words (big surprise, I know) about Niven-- I think it was Niven-- boasting that he just re-sold one of his old short stories as a TV script just by changing the names of the main characters to “Kirk” and “Spock.” The author who got the most mileage out of a concept was David Gerrard. He did Tribbles, changed it slightly and sold it to TAS, and years later I saw an episode of _The Real Ghostbusters_ written by him…and the conflict was Slimer being somehow broken down into millions of little Slimers and overwhelming NYC. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/55 "2008-10-17T18:58:04Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Assignment: Earth did the alien abduction thing without having the ‘aliens’ be the Enterprise - Gary Seven was the descendant of humans abducted by aliens centuries earlier. Ah, this is true. Although Gary Seven doesn’t really fit the classic ‘alien abduction’ model like John Christopher did… getting beamed up, medically examined and prodded, and then returned with no memory of the event. Gary was more of a George Adamski-style “Space Brother.” Technically I suppose the “I am Kirok!” Indians rescued by the Preservers were ‘abductees’ too, now that I think about it. Speaking of Captain Christopher: why have we not visited Saturn yet, dammit? ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/56 "2008-10-17T19:05:44Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Speaking of Captain Christopher: why have we not visited Saturn yet, dammit? Same reason the Eugenics wars weren’t on the nightly news in the 1990s: A wizard did it! ---
**Author:** ![Prelude\_to\_Fascination](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Prelude\_to\_Fascination](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prelude_to_Fascination)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/57 "2008-10-17T19:10:43Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > The author who got the most mileage out of a concept was David Gerrard. He did Tribbles, changed it slightly and sold it to TAS, and years later I saw an episode of _The Real Ghostbusters_ written by him…and the conflict was Slimer being somehow broken down into millions of little Slimers and overwhelming NYC. With Bloch getting at least honorable mention with “Yours Truly, Jack the Ripper” and “Wolf in the Fold”. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/58 "2008-10-17T19:12:25Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > The author who got the most mileage out of a concept was David Gerrard. He did Tribbles, changed it slightly and sold it to TAS, and years later I saw an episode of _The Real Ghostbusters_ written by him…and the conflict was Slimer being somehow broken down into millions of little Slimers and overwhelming NYC. Hah! I did not know about the Ghostbusters episode. It’s worse than you realize: Gerrold’s other TAS script was “Bem,” which featured the freaky alien ambassador who could disassemble himself into flying body parts. Gerrold seems to have one idea, and that idea is “fission.” Speaking of which, I notice that Gerrold also wrote and is directing the newest fan-made [Star Trek: Phase II](http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/) episode, “Blood and Fire.” Apparently this episode is dedicated to AIDS victims, and the plot description suggests that it may feature those flying pancake-amoeba parasites from “Operation: Annihilate!” So Gerrold is once again on firm ground here with his cherished “cellular division” premise. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/59 "2008-10-17T19:22:58Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Yes, many science fiction novelests do it all the time. The problem is in getting the 'tards that run the studios to go for the idea. One thing that _could_ work (if done properly) and AFAIK, hasn’t been really done in a series format is humans tearing around the solar system. Keep the tech fairly simple (say 10+ years more advanced than what we have now), hire decent writers and actors and go for it. > > Roddenberry pitched Star Trek as “Wagon Train in space,” there’s no reason we couldn’t do that in the solar system. Sure, you’re _not_ going to have aliens as a source of conflict, but there’s _plenty_ of human conflict that can be exploited. You can have nations vying for resources in space against one another, or you can put a multi-national crew on the same ship/base/station and hash out the conflicts which would naturally occur when you cram wildly different people into a small space. Add a dash of technical problems every now and then, and you’ve got drama. I strongly recommend the 1987 British series _Star Cops_, not to be confused with the comedic 1994 American series _Space Precinct_. It’s set in 2027 and ‘Star Cops’ is the rather derisive nickname of the International Space Police Force, a small and somewhat unrespected cadre of law-enforcement officers who have to navigate the diplomatic hassles of settling deadly-serious disputes among the various American, British, Japanese, Chinese, European and Soviet (heh) space stations and small-scale lunar bases. The sets were cleverly designed, often upside-down, to increase the illusion of zero-gravity. The primary American station, the _Ronald Reagan_, had artificial gravity in the living quarters because of centrifugal spin. I noticed great care was taken to keep the science and tech plausible (though speculative) at all times. It’s more a cop show than a space show, though. One particularly clever episode spoiled: A vessel in deep space reports an onboard explosion, making them lose most of their air supply. No-one can reach them in time and the crew’s only hope is a highly experimental suspended animation technique that _might_ keep them alive long enough to complete a solar orbit and be picked up eight years later. Nathan Spring and his team investigate the ship’s history and eventually discover that it was sabotage, by a scientist who desperately wanted to prove his suspended animation technique would work (up to this point, his potentially lifesaving research has been thought a lucky coincidence). Spring would like to charge him with murder, but they’ll have no way of knowing if it _is_ murder… for eight years. _Star Cops_ was notable for messy but logical endings, avoiding the forced neatness of more formulaic cop shows, including discontent and distrust within their own ranks. I highly recommend it for fans of serious science-fiction and police shows. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323/60 "2008-10-17T21:20:13Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Yes, the TOS story is over. _They’re not telling that story again_. They’re using the Star Trek cachet to tell a _new_ story. Only the names haven’t been changed. Oh, I agree. I just call that weak storytelling. What’s the artistic/literary function of using the same characters in the same (slightly earlier) setting to tell a different story? I realize that there might be many financial reasons, but where’s the pay off for the audience, other than getting to go, “oooh, look, it’s Kirk and Spock again!! Ooooh, remember all that other stuff they did that I liked so much!?!?” If you’re going to revive/remake a story, you’ve got a couple options: [ul] [li]A production with the purpose of paying homage to the original. [/li][li]An adaptation that brings the themes, characters, whatever, of the original into a new setting (chronologically, culturally, etc)[/li][li]A deconstruction that points out new aspects of the original concept (ie, _Galaxy Quest_ in regards to _Trek_)[/li][/ul] A movie that can’t decide which of these it wants to be is likely going to be a bad film. I don’t know about this new one; I haven’t really read anything about it, but so far the idea of using old characters but with new character to fill in new parts of an old story that’s already done isn’t one that appeals much to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-star-trek-tos-was-a-great-franchise-and-is-now-dead/468323.md?page=4)