# Why the big deal over torture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663 "2009-05-07T16:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/201 "2009-05-09T20:52:40Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > My argument is that the definition of torture is vague. This is unfortunate but it is impossible to quantify. So while some things may upset your delicate sensibilities and you may call it torture, to others it may well just be a way of life. I, for one, would be in severe anguish if I were homeless but the bank that foreclosed on me would not be torturing me. Nobody considers drowning a way of life. Convincing your brain that your body is being deprived of oxygen is not a way of life. This isn’t some minor difference of opinion here. It’s not a matter of “some people prefer to breathe air, and some prefer water.” And the US has prosecuted people who have waterboarded others as torturers going back to the Spanish-American War, so it’s not like it’s an unsettled point in law, either. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/202 "2009-05-09T21:01:56Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > What you say makes sense… > > I heard that special forces trainees undergo waterboarding though. I know they “know” they won’t die during the process, and that “bad” guys don’t have that luxury. But since our soldiers are subjected to this, and use that “training” to help resist the scary kinds of torture that they may be subjected to by our enemies made me think that waterboarding ain’t so bad. However, they say that anything can be used as torture, and that means WBing is too I supppose, but only if done with dog-piss and dirty underwear for hours and hours on end. Shit…tickling has been used as torture from what I have heard…guess we can’t even tickle our enemies… Have you had a chance to see the video I posted. Are you intellectually prepared to admit you were wrong? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/203 "2009-05-09T21:27:31Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > By that definition life in prison could be considered torture. Hell, even a few years can cause anguish of the mind. That’s why the U.N. declaration against torture specifically excludes the incidental suffering caused by legitimate sanctions. Torture is when you intentionally do something for the _primary purpose_ of causing suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/204 "2009-05-09T21:31:25Z")
Again, **yorick73** , how was waterboarding different when it was done by the Japanese during WWII? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/205 "2009-05-09T22:36:19Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > This is not a conservative vs liberal debate IMO. The liberals have merely used this to their political advantage. Where was the outrage during the Clinton administration for the use of rendition. We can be fairly certain that those captives were really tortured. And I’ve heard people condemn America for torture and training torturers for our puppet regimes for as long as I’ve been paying attention to politics, back during Reagan. The fact that you apparently weren’t paying attention doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. And Clinton wasn’t a liberal anyway; he’s been called “the best Republican President” for a reason. > [@yorick73](#): > > The other point I was trying to make is that reasonable people can disagree about whether official US interrogation techniques constitute torture. No, “reasonable people” can do no such thing, and don’t. Since the “official techniques” in question have been defined as torture for a long time, treated by us as torture for a long time, and only started being defended as not being torture when WE wanted to torture people. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/206 "2009-05-10T00:30:14Z")
Reasonable people _can_ disagree, this much is certain. Some quite reasonable people point out that torture is morally repugnant, and beneath the contempt of a civilized nation. Others are quick to point out that a strategy that fills your enemy’s recruitment centers with eager recruits is strategically in error, that those methods are unsound. Sooner or later, some other reasonable person is likely to point out that both of those points can be, and are, entirely correct, that no real disagreement exists. The rest of us will then most likely tell him to shut up and quit being such a smart ass. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/207 "2009-05-10T00:46:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sooner or later, some other reasonable person is likely to point out that both of those points can be, and are, entirely correct, that no real disagreement exists. The rest of us will then most likely tell him to shut up and quit being such a smart ass. That’s the thing; torture is such a bad idea that all the reasonable people are on one side, the side against it. It’s one of the wrongest ideas I’ve ever heard of; it’s wrong on all levels. Morally, politically, practically, militarily. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/208 "2009-05-10T04:43:47Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Again, **yorick73** , how was waterboarding different when it was done by the Japanese during WWII? The Japanese would use it to drown prisoners, pump saltwater into their stomach which was fatal, and jump on the prisoners distended stomachs. The jumping would cause the prisoner to vomit and often damaged internal organs. I’d say that the Japanese method is a wee bit more severe Here is one account: > **[Waitlist - Stonking](https://stonking.com/waitlist)** > > Join the Stonking waitlist. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/209 "2009-05-10T04:45:57Z")
[quote=“Der\_Trihs, post:205, topic:495663”] And I’ve heard people condemn America for torture and training torturers for our puppet regimes for as long as I’ve been paying attention to politics, back during Reagan. The fact that you apparently weren’t paying attention doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. And Clinton wasn’t a liberal anyway; he’s been called “the best Republican President” for a reason.QUOTE] I didn’t refer to Clinton as a liberal. He was only slightly left of center. I was referring to Nancy Pelosi and company ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/210 "2009-05-10T04:51:13Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > That’s why the U.N. declaration against torture specifically excludes the incidental suffering caused by legitimate sanctions. > > Torture is when you intentionally do something for the _primary purpose_ of causing suffering. The primary purpose of EIT was to extract information, not to cause suffering. Non-uniformed enemy combatants could be shot on sight under the laws of war. Many of these people are lucky to be alive. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/211 "2009-05-10T05:06:40Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > The primary purpose of EIT was to extract information, not to cause suffering. To extract information _through suffering_. Here, I’ll repost the wording from the U.N. treaty on torture that we signed in 1988: _“Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.”_ So, yes, by our own standards, EIT is torture. While the incidental suffering a prisoner experiences from merely being incarcerated is NOT. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/212 "2009-05-10T05:13:32Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > To extract information _through suffering_. > > Here, I’ll repost the wording from the U.N. treaty on torture that we signed in 1988: > > _“Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.”_ > > So, yes, by our own standards, EIT is torture. While the incidental suffering a prisoner experiences from merely being incarcerated is NOT. That is a much more clear definition than the one posted earlier. I was responding to that definition. I believe you are half right…I see the difference between incidental suffering versus inflicting severe pain to extract information. I just don’t believe waterboarding meets the definition of severe pain (physical or mental) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/213 "2009-05-10T05:16:33Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I just don’t believe waterboarding meets the definition of severe pain (physical or mental) Then of what use is it as an interrogation technique? Why would moderate discomfort compel a terrorist to break and give us useful information? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/214 "2009-05-10T05:20:48Z")
There is a considerable body of evidence to indicate that you are wrong. Its that pile, right over there. Yeah, to your left, right there…no, not that one, \*that’s \*Mt. Everest, the big one next to it…_that’s_ the body of evidence… ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/215 "2009-05-10T08:17:53Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I believe you are half right…I see the difference between incidental suffering versus inflicting severe pain to extract information. I just don’t believe waterboarding meets the definition of severe pain (physical or mental) I suggest you [try it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717). See how it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/216 "2009-05-10T09:19:19Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > No, and I apologise for not being more clear. Some people stepped over the line but this was not the official policy of the US. These people should be prosecuted for their crimes. > > The other point I was trying to make is that reasonable people can disagree about whether official US interrogation techniques constitute torture. The memos released show that thought went into how long a certain procedure could be performed, etc. “What we did was totally OK ! Some guys on our side wrote us little papers telling us so !” > [@](#): > > Again, this does not equal torture. It sounds like something your big brother would do to you as a kid. Can it scare the hell out of you and make you extremely uncomfortable? Absolutely! But does it constitute torture? No way. Ha ! Thanks for the perfect setup : no. I think you’ll find it’s something your Big Brother would do to you in Room 101. It’s a 1984 reference. It’s a book. Look it up. > [@](#): > > The definition of torture is vague. It is obvious that the techniques used by many countries are torture (cutting off limbs, rape, killing your family, medical experimentation etc.). The definition of torture leaves a huge gray area where reasonable people may disagree. This is just the nature of using such a vague definition…extreme and severe are words that do not exactly have clear definitions. Yeah, I hear you… torture, not torture, innocent and terrorist, cruel and humane, right and wrong, sensical and nucking futs, it’s all so vague and hazy. Thankfully, we can trust God and that nice Mr. Cheney to tell us what’s what. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/217 "2009-05-10T14:22:06Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I just don’t believe waterboarding meets the definition of severe pain (physical or mental) How much evidence do you need to change your belief? We have provided plenty, the literal mountain of evidence argues against your belief. I’ll add another data point here. First his bona fides: > [@](#): > > Malcolm W. Nance is a counter-terrorism and terrorism intelligence consultant for the U.S. government’s Special Operations, Homeland Security and Intelligence agencies. A 20-year veteran of the US intelligence community’s Combating Terrorism program and a six year veteran of the Global War on Terrorism he has extensive field and combat experience as an field intelligence collections operator, an Arabic speaking interrogator and a master Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) instructor. From Beirut in 1983 he has deployed on numerous anti-terrorism and counter-terrorism intelligence operations in Balkans, Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa and other small wars in direct support to the principle agencies of the Special Operations and Intelligence Community. In 1997 at the US Navy SERE School’s Advanced Terrorism, Abduction and Hostage Survival program (ATAHS) in Coronado, California, he created and led the terrorism training team tasked to simulate the Al Qaeda organization and its tactics, techniques and procedures. In January 2001, he formed Special Readiness Services International to support the SOF in analysis of Al Qaeda and global Jihadi strategy and tactics. On the morning of 9/11 he eye witnessed the attack on the Pentagon and performed rescue/recovery at the crash site. For more than six years he has conducted operations in support of international, federal and state homeland security agencies as well as in both Iraq and Afghanistan. > > SOURCE: [http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/authors/malcolm-nance/bio/](http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/authors/malcolm-nance/bio/) Sure looks like as honest-to-god an expert on this as you are likely to find. He’s been there, done that. Let’s see what his opinion of waterboarding is (bolding original). > [@](#): > > As a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California I know the waterboard personally and intimately. SERE staff were required undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception. I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. > > \ > > Having been subjected to them all, I know these techniques, if in fact they are actually being used, are not dangerous when applied in training for short periods. However, when performed with even moderate intensity over an extended time on an unsuspecting prisoner – it is torture, without doubt. Couple that with waterboarding and the entire medley not only “shock the conscience” as the statute forbids -it would terrify you. Most people can not stand to watch a high intensity kinetic interrogation. One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American. > > \ > > With regards to the waterboard, I want to set the record straight so the apologists can finally embrace the fact that they condone and encourage torture. > > \ > > \*\*There is No Debate Except for Torture Apologists > > 1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period.\*\* There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. > > \ > > **2. Waterboarding is not a simulation.** Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word. > > Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. > > \ > > Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again. > > SOURCE: [Waterboarding is Torture... Period | Small Wars Journal by Arizona State University](http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/) Lots more on it at the link. I encourage you to go read it. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/218 "2009-05-10T16:01:34Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > To extract information _through suffering_. > > Here, I’ll repost the wording from the U.N. treaty on torture that we signed in 1988: > > _“Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.”_ > > So, yes, by our own standards, EIT is torture. While the incidental suffering a prisoner experiences from merely being incarcerated is NOT. The above UN Treaty the United States signed was the CAT (Convention Against Torture). It’s important to note how our treaty obligations work because people use them as if they are binding law on the United States (and why shouldn’t they be, we signed them, right). In this case, the Senate used an “understanding.” An understanding is basically saying, “yes, we consent to the treaty, but here’s how we interpret it.” The understanding apply domestically, only. Two important understanding in this treaty were: (1) It emphasizes the “severe” pain; not just regular; and (2) Must include “specific” intent; therefore it’s subjective; (if waterboarder subjectively believed they were not inflicting “severe” pain, you’re ok; they might believe this because they were told, correctly, that we used this technique on our own soldiers.) So likely waterboarding was legal domestically per the US’s legal interpretation of the CAT. but, just because something is legal, does not mean it’s moral. Hence the outrage against waterboarding. And the above “understandings” only apply to the United States interpretation of the CAT Treaty. Other countries, say Spain, interpretation of the CAT would include a prohibition of against waterboarding and they could prosecute US persons for violating the treaty. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/219 "2009-05-11T14:53:51Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > So likely waterboarding was legal domestically per the US’s legal interpretation of the CAT. Err…huh? There are domestic laws that cover torture. > [@](#): > > (a) Offense. - Whoever outside the United States commits or > attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or > imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to > any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be > punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life. > (b) Jurisdiction. - There is jurisdiction over the activity > prohibited in subsection (a) if - > (1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or > (2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, > irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged > offender. > > ``` > (c) Conspiracy. - A person who conspires to commit an offense > under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other > than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the > offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy. > > ``` > > SOURCE: [U.S. Code : Title 18 : Section 2340A](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/113c/sections/section_2340a.html) > As used in this chapter - > (1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under > the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical > or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering > incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his > custody or physical control; > (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged > mental harm caused by or resulting from - > (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of > severe physical pain or suffering; > (B) the administration or application, or threatened > administration or application, of mind-altering substances or > other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or > the personality; > (C) the threat of imminent death; or > (D) the threat that another person will imminently be > subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the > administration or application of mind-altering substances or > other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or > personality; and > > ``` > (3) "United States" includes all areas under the jurisdiction > of the United States including any of the places described in > sections 5 and 7 of this title and section 46501(2) of title 49. > > ``` > > SOURCE: [U.S. Code : Title 18 : Section 2340](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=2340) There is more than that but that should be enough (for instance the Geneva Convention has the force of law in the US). ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/220 "2009-05-11T15:55:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Err…huh? > > There are domestic laws that cover torture. > There is more than that but that should be enough (for instance the Geneva Convention has the force of law in the US). I was simply replying to the posted CAT Treaty and making a point that the treaty as signed, is not the exact treaty language as the US understands it. There seems to be an honest mistaken belief that the treaty language the US signs is binding on us domestically. That’s not always true. Re: 2340. Yes, that is a domestic law against torture, but by its own language it only applies “outside the United States.” This would include de-facto US jurisidictions such as GTMO. Even so, it reflects the “severe” and “specific intent” requirements that we included in the CAT treaty. Consistent we be. re: Geneva Conventions; they do have the force of law in the US, but regarding what exactly is not entirely clear. Most of the Geneva Conventions apply to Prisoners of War and to be a POW you need to be fighting on behalf of a recognized State. This leaves out a lot of who we are fighting. What is likely to apply, regardless of State connection, is common Article 3; this covers inhumane treatment. Like you said, there is more than that. What I’m hoping to make clear is likely what we did was not illegal (domestically). It was immoral, and that’s a fact. Now, whether it’s justifiable to do an immoral act to possibly retrieve information that could save US lives is a matter of debate. In the short term, maybe; in the long term, never. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663.md?page=12)