# Why the big deal over torture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663 "2009-05-07T16:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/101 "2009-05-08T16:01:48Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I’m not arguing about how effective torture may be. I believe what was done does not rise to the level of TORTURE! Ronald Reagan would disagree with you. What we’re doing is torture by the definition of the U.N. treaty against torture that Ronald Reagan signed in 1988. And if the suffering we’re inflicting isn’t extreme, then why do it? Do you really believe a big bad terrorist is going to crack just because we made him mildly uncomfortable? That’s just silly. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/102 "2009-05-08T16:08:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Politicians are politicians, and they’re famous for caring about things only when they think they need to. Regardless, Nancy Pelosi is not posting here, and plenty of people on this board have been consistently opposed to torture. I’m not accusing anyone here of changing their opinion. I believe everyone here is sincere in their beliefs. But, I believe those seeking prosecutions were genuinely for EIT until the public outcry. > [@Marley23](#): > > Other people here and around the country, unfortunately, only came to their senses after the distance of several years’ allowed them to realize that actually, no, we did not need to waterboard prisoners in order to prevent the terrorists from setting off a nuclear bomb under the Little Acres Mall in downtown Dubuque. Or maybe we did… > **[CNSNews](https://newsbusters.org/cnsnews)** > > Welcome to NewsBusters, a project of the Media Research Center (MRC), America’s leading media watchdog in documenting, exposing and neutralizing liberal media bias. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/103 "2009-05-08T16:11:52Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I’m not accusing anyone here of changing their opinion. I believe everyone here is sincere in their beliefs. But, I believe those seeking prosecutions were genuinely for EIT until the public outcry. Surely if people changed their minds for political reasons (and I wouldn’t be surprised) that puts their thoughts on the subject into question at both points, not just the changed version? That is to say, if it’s fair to question their motives behind them saying torture is unacceptable, then it’s equally as fair to question their motives for saying it’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/104 "2009-05-08T16:12:52Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Sounds much more frightening when its in all caps It is called “emphasis”. Look it up. > [@](#): > > I’m not arguing about how effective torture may be. I believe what was done does not rise to the level of TORTURE! Right. They used it during the Spanish Inquisition as the first step in torture before they put their prisoner in the comfy chair (NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!). Other such nice guys that used it were the Gestapo, Pinochet regime and the Khmer Rouge. Pussies the lot of them who clearly were messed up when it came to torturing people. We have the testimony right here on this Board from **Scylla** who waterboarded himself. We have testimony\* from doctors who have treated those who have been waterboarded and attest to the clinical effects waterboarding has on people and describe it as torture. But hey…your opinion is waterboarding is not torture in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Waiting for you to argue for the existence of invisible pink unicorns next. You’ll have about as much evidence for their existence as you do for the notion that waterboarding does not constitute torture. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/105 "2009-05-08T16:14:08Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > To assume it won’t happen is idiocy. All the bleeding heart policies in the world will have no affect. > > 1st Baron Fisher of Kilverstone Admiral Jaci Fisher had it right when he said “You want to regulate war? You may as well try to regulate hell”. Obviously the inherent problem with trying to regulate war is that given the choice between following the rules and victory, most will side with victory. That is not, however, a license for unrestrained wholesale distruction and cruelty that serves no military purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/106 "2009-05-08T16:27:56Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Again, I am not defending torture. I don’t believe these methods constitute torture. I DO believe this is a political witch hunt because the very people waiving the pitchforks were in favor of these techniques at the time. There was bipartisan agreement for once. You mean heavy beatings, sodomy, sleep deprivation, covering people with insects, constriction, waterboarding and fucking [strappado](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6988054/)aren’t torture anymore ? In case you’re not booksmart on that lovely procedure, it could be described as “enhanced crucifixion”. So… yeah. I guess I didn’t get that memo. ETA : on second thoughts, here’s an amusing reversal : what does, in your opinion, constitute torture ? And where exactly is the line between “torture” and “not torture” drawn, in your mind’s eye ? ETA2 : Oh, and your old saw about “the second 9/11 torture saved us from” has been thoroughly debunked already. Check out the other “torture is swell” threads. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/107 "2009-05-08T16:29:35Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Or maybe we did… > [CNSNews | Newsbusters](http://www.cnsnews.com/PUBLIC/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=46949) Except that attack was averted before we waterboarded him. Nice try, though. All waterboarding did was tell us that they were behind it. That kind of knowledge (if it is, in fact, true) is not worth sacrificing our humanity. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/108 "2009-05-08T16:45:59Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Except that attack was averted before we waterboarded him. Nice try, though. All waterboarding did was tell us that they were behind it. That kind of knowledge (if it is, in fact, true) is not worth sacrificing our humanity. Or maybe it wasn’t averted before we waterboarded him [http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDE5YTNmZTg5OWUyOTlkMGUxOTk3OGMxY2I4ZDQ4YWQ=](http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDE5YTNmZTg5OWUyOTlkMGUxOTk3OGMxY2I4ZDQ4YWQ=) Doesn’t matter to me either way. The fact that we got that info out of him using waterboarding says a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/109 "2009-05-08T16:47:45Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I guess I didn’t get that memo. Maybe it hasn’t been declassified yet. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/110 "2009-05-08T17:09:21Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You mean heavy beatings, sodomy, sleep deprivation, covering people with insects, constriction, waterboarding and fucking [strappado](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6988054/)aren’t torture anymore ? In case you’re not booksmart on that lovely procedure, it could be described as “enhanced crucifixion”. So… yeah. > I guess I didn’t get that memo. I have said that some individuals acted outside of the law. I am not defending that. Reasonable people can disagree about whether we went up to the line or crossed it. Also, I don’t believe anyone was covered with insects. I think one insect was placed in a box with the detainee and told that it did NOT have a sting that would cause severe pain or death. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/111 "2009-05-08T17:19:55Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I have said that some individuals acted outside of the law. I am not defending that. Reasonable people can disagree about whether we went up to the line or crossed it. No. They can’t. We tortured, and that’s unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/112 "2009-05-08T17:21:24Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Or maybe it wasn’t averted before we waterboarded him > [http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDE5YTNmZTg5OWUyOTlkMGUxOTk3OGMxY2I4ZDQ4YWQ=](http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDE5YTNmZTg5OWUyOTlkMGUxOTk3OGMxY2I4ZDQ4YWQ=) Try finding a reputable cite, like something from the Weekly World News. > [@yorick73](#): > > Doesn’t matter to me either way. Somehow I’m not surprised. > [@yorick73](#): > > The fact that we got that info out of him using waterboarding says a lot. What, precisely, do you think it says? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/113 "2009-05-08T17:41:17Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I have said that some individuals acted outside of the law. I am not defending that. Reasonable people can disagree about whether we went up to the line or crossed it. I have no idea what you just said. I _think_ this is supposed to be a half-assed “it’s only a few rotten apples” defence, while at the same time saying the apples might not have been rotten after all ? > [@](#): > > Also, I don’t believe anyone was covered with insects. I think one insect was placed in a box with the detainee and told that it did NOT have a sting that would cause severe pain or death. As an intense creepy-crawly phobic, you’ll understand why to me this still seems like kind of a big deal to inflict on someone. Oh, and you still have to provide examples of what you’d consider to be actual torture, and where torture starts on the scale of Doing Unpleasant Stuff To A Fellow Human Being. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/114 "2009-05-08T17:51:51Z")
> [@redshift](#): > > So, I have no idea if this is the right forum to post it, and a quick search didn’t find me a topic on this. > > But why does America make such a big deal over torturing enemy combatants? And especially considering most of the stuff we do is a lot of psychological stuff rather than physical stuff. We are engaged in combat with another party, and if we capture enemy combatants who may know something, should we not be actively pursuing possible information? I don’t suppose its sufficient to just ask please. > > Torture probably has been used in every major conflict by every major party in human history. Why can’t we just accept that war is a dirty affair and that things like this come out of it? It seems like we’re almost ashamed about it. > > I just don’t see the big deal about it. War is hell, does protesting about torture change that fact? Because even in war. some things are just wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/115 "2009-05-08T17:53:49Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > As an intense creepy-crawly phobic, you’ll understand why to me this still seems like kind of a big deal to inflict on someone. This is probably just a rhetorical device, but you don’t actually think he understands that, do you? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/116 "2009-05-08T18:04:55Z")
[http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090501/ap\_on\_re\_us/us\_demjanjuk](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090501/ap_on_re_us/us_demjanjuk) Such contradictory messages we send. Here we are sending John Denjanjuk to trial for WW2 crimes against people. He is getting hit with 29,000 counts of accessory to murder for his being a guard in concentration camps. He is 89 years old. On one hand we are supposed to say shit happens in war and that is just the way it is. On the other hand we help track a guy down who was involved for over 60 years. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/117 "2009-05-08T18:13:58Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090501/ap\_on\_re\_us/us\_demjanjuk](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090501/ap_on_re_us/us_demjanjuk) Such contradictory messages we send. Here we are sending John Denjanjuk to trial for WW2 crimes against people. He is getting hit with 29,000 counts of accessory to murder for his being a guard in concentration camps. He is 89 years old. > On one hand we are supposed to say shit happens in war and that is just the way it is. On the other hand we help track a guy down who was involved for over 60 years. It’s a double standard. It’s only a bad thing when “the other guy” does it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/118 "2009-05-08T18:26:12Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > It’s a double standard. It’s only a bad thing when “the other guy” does it. It would seem so: > [@](#): > > You will notice how the NYT defines torture when it comes to foreign governments - isolation, sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation. Much milder than anything the US did to one of its own citizens, Jose Padilla. But the parallel is almost perfect: these are, after all, the exact Chinese Communist techniques that were reverse engineered from the SERE program. So you have a perfect demonstration of the NYT’s double-standard. If Chinese do it to Americans, it’s torture; if Americans do it to an American, it’s “harsh interrogation.” > > SOURCE: [The NYT Finally Prints "Torture" - The Atlantic](http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/05/the-nyt-finally-prints-torture.html) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/119 "2009-05-08T18:41:41Z")
I just think it’s sad that someone would post a thread with this title at all. Ten years ago the title of this thread would have been unthinkable in any venue. The Bush Administration has ruined us for a generation. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/120 "2009-05-08T18:41:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > This is probably just a rhetorical device, but you don’t actually think he understands that, do you? Eh, it’s like torturing an innocent suspect in a ticking time bomb scenario - patiently explaining basic, simple and self-evident truths is the ONLY tool I can use in the timeframe, and they might just work ! I can’t afford \*not \*to do it ! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663.md?page=7)