# Why the big deal over torture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663 "2009-05-07T16:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/121 "2009-05-08T18:44:41Z")
> [@redshift](#): > > I just don’t see the big deal about it. War is hell, does protesting about torture change that fact? Yes, it does, to the extent it changes international-consensus attitudes about what practices are acceptable, therefore makes such practices less likely to be used. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/122 "2009-05-08T19:44:29Z")
Is this torture? FBI agents think so. Curious how **yorick73** sees it. The following is from a piece Senator Dick Durbin read to the Senate. > [@](#): > > Numerous FBI agents who observed interrogations at Guantanamo Bay complained to their supervisors. In one email that has been made public, an FBI agent complained that interrogators were using “torture techniques.” > > That phrase did not come from a reporter or politician. It came from an FBI agent describing what Americans were doing to these prisoners. > > \ > > When you read some of the graphic descriptions of what has occurred here–I almost hesitate to put them in the record, and yet they have to be added to this debate. Let me read to you what one FBI agent saw. And I quote from his report: > > “On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food, or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . . On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.” > > SOURCE: [http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/752ovekh.asp?pg=1](http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/752ovekh.asp?pg=1) So lets look at it more critically. Here is how the US defines “torture” as a matter of law: > [@](#): > > (1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control; > > SOURCE: [Title 18, Part I, Chapter 113C, § 2340. Definitions](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002340----000-.html) Looks like torture to me. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/123 "2009-05-08T20:02:57Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Lost freedom is only the worst that can happen if they actually, you know… _surrender_. If they choose to fight, they have just as much chance of eating a bullet as against anyone else. That’s true. But the vast majority of people on the losing side typically surrender and don’t get killed. And in general, armies crumbling in a panic in the heat of a battle is far far more common than armies deciding to surrender beforehand. And the same goes, BTW, for terrorists. There are certainly exceptions, but I have no doubt that there are some people who are willing to risk death and certainly to risk imprisonment, but might have second thoughts about torture. (According to the KUBARK manual linked to in the other thread, a Communist spy said he thought to himself “if I’m captured I won’t be forced to say anything or be tortured” etc.) I know if I was otherwise inclined to become a terrorist or spy, I would be a lot quicker to do it against some Western European country rather than some Third World one, for such reasons. Which is, again, not to deny that lack of torture can also encourage surrender as Lemur suggested. But it’s not nearly as clear that the overall picture is that way. **Whack-a-Mole** , I would not consider what you cite to be torture. (Except maybe the loud rap music :)) Unless you consider all discomfort torture. My bedroom didn’t have air conditioning as a kid - now it’s “torture” to not have it? If guys say waterboarding is torture, OK - I don’t know, but if you’re claiming being left without food for 18-24 hours, or not having air-conditioning or the like is torture, then you’re going overboard, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/124 "2009-05-08T20:05:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > **Whack-a-Mole** , I would not consider what you cite to be torture. (Except maybe the loud rap music :)) Unless you consider all discomfort torture. My bedroom didn’t have air conditioning as a kid - now it’s “torture” to not have it? If guys say waterboarding is torture, OK - I don’t know, but if you’re claiming being left without food for 18-24 hours, or not having air-conditioning or the like is torture, then you’re going overboard, IMHO. Err…you mean being chained to the floor in a freezing room, pissing and shitting yourself, tearing your hair out and nearly unconscious is peachy? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/125 "2009-05-08T20:07:14Z")
No. My point was that there’s a lot of room between “torture” and “peachy”. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/126 "2009-05-08T20:08:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > **Whack-a-Mole** , I would not consider what you cite to be torture. (Except maybe the loud rap music :)) Unless you consider all discomfort torture. My bedroom didn’t have air conditioning as a kid - now it’s “torture” to not have it? If guys say waterboarding is torture, OK - I don’t know, but if you’re claiming being left without food for 18-24 hours, or not having air-conditioning or the like is torture, then you’re going overboard, IMHO. May I please have a ticket to a visit to Fotheringayland? I would like to visit a place where I can twist and selectively ignore any evidence to support my own point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/127 "2009-05-08T20:13:53Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No. > > My point was that there’s a lot of room between “torture” and “peachy”. I’d think it is self evident if someone is tearing their hair out they likely are in agony. I think it is self evident that people do not willingly piss and shit themselves. I think it is self evident that if your environment has driven you to the edge of unconsciousness you are more than merely uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/128 "2009-05-08T20:15:53Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > **Whack-a-Mole** , I would not consider what you cite to be torture. (Except maybe the loud rap music :)) Unless you consider all discomfort torture. My bedroom didn’t have air conditioning as a kid - now it’s “torture” to not have it? If guys say waterboarding is torture, OK - I don’t know, but if you’re claiming being left without food for 18-24 hours, or not having air-conditioning or the like is torture, then you’re going overboard, IMHO. I’m glad you have no power. Your opinions are ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/129 "2009-05-08T20:22:44Z")
I honestly can’t decide if he really thinks this way or if he’s just pushing buttons because it gets him attention. Nor can I decide which option depresses me more. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/130 "2009-05-08T20:25:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > **Whack-a-Mole** , I would not consider what you cite to be torture. (Except maybe the loud rap music :)) Unless you consider all discomfort torture. My bedroom didn’t have air conditioning as a kid - now it’s “torture” to not have it? If guys say waterboarding is torture, OK - I don’t know, but if you’re claiming being left without food for 18-24 hours, or not having air-conditioning or the like is torture, then you’re going overboard, IMHO. Are you retarded? It’s not being left without food for 18 hours, it’s being chained in one position for 18 hours. Ask John McCain how that felt when Charlie did it to him, and you’ll get an earful about whether he thought it was fucking torture. You won’t bother, but try this. Get a pair of handcuffs. Handcuff your left hand to your right ankle and your right hand to your left ankle. You might need some help. It’s a bit uncomfortable, right? But no big deal. Now stay in that position for 18 hours. What was no big deal for a few minutes or even half an hour becomes agonizing pain after 18 hours. Now, pay attention to that agonizing pain. Because that’s what torture is, the intentional infliction of agonizing pain. Now add in that you’re forced to urinate and defecate on yourself, you’re naked, your cell is 50 degrees, you’ve been kept awake for days, and 100 decibel noise is blaring. Is that torture enough for you, tough guy? I guarantee you’ll be in agonizing pain, and I didn’t do a thing to you. Just chained you in an uncomfortable position and left you there. Anyone who argues that it isn’t torture to be chained in one position for hours and hours isn’t paying attention. I advise you to try it. Again, these are all techniques that were perfected in the Stalinist Gulags. I don’t imagine Stalin’s goons had any problem using branding irons or thumbscrews, but they found these torture techniques to be superior to medieval methods. Simpler, easier, more suffering with less work. And that’s why these techniques were used in SERE training, because these are the techniques the communists used to torture American prisoners in Korea and Vietnam. Are you gonna claim differently? Are you going to deny the truth again? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/131 "2009-05-08T20:25:50Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > **Whack-a-Mole** , I would not consider what you cite to be torture. (Except maybe the loud rap music :)) Unless you consider all discomfort torture. My bedroom didn’t have air conditioning as a kid - now it’s “torture” to not have it? If guys say waterboarding is torture, OK - I don’t know, but if you’re claiming being left without food for 18-24 hours, or not having air-conditioning or the like is torture, then you’re going overboard, IMHO. So the FBI agent is wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/132 "2009-05-08T20:32:35Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’d think it is self evident if someone is tearing their hair out they likely are in agony. I think it is self evident that people do not willingly piss and shit themselves. I think it is self evident that if your environment has driven you to the edge of unconsciousness you are more than merely uncomfortable. I would agree with you about the first and third examples (these were actually the same incident). The others, not. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/133 "2009-05-08T20:39:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I would agree with you about the first and third examples (these were actually the same incident). The others, not. Ahem. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, So because it wasn’t specifically referenced as happening in this particular instance, you just ignore it? I call trolling. This has got to be deliberate button pushing. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/134 "2009-05-08T20:42:18Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > So because it wasn’t specifically referenced as happening in this particular instance, you just ignore it? I don’t know what this means. If you clarify what you mean, I’ll probably address it. (Unless you’re engaging in “deliberate button pushing”, ala your prior posts. :D) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/135 "2009-05-08T20:51:26Z")
So do you think being chained in a fetal position for 18 hours is going to cause you agonizing pain, or not? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/136 "2009-05-08T20:53:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t know what this means. If you clarify what you mean, I’ll probably address it. > > (Unless you’re engaging in “deliberate button pushing”, ala your prior posts. :D) From what you said, you agreed with the hair-tearing and the catatonia, but not the urination and defecation. I think I may have misread you as saying that you agreed with those parts because they were the same incident and excluded the other because it wasn’t. But if you weren’t excluding the urination and defecation because it didn’t come from the specific example, perhaps you’d care to explain why being forced to sit in your own piss and shit, especially on top of the other methods already described, \*isn’t \*a form of torture. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/137 "2009-05-08T20:56:50Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > But if you weren’t excluding the urination and defecation because it didn’t come from the specific example, perhaps you’d care to explain why being forced to sit in your own piss and shit, especially on top of the other methods already described, \*isn’t \*a form of torture. Especially given that it adds to the misery substantially. I’ve been in a couple of situations where I was more or less force by circumstance to have an accident…even for the few minutes that I had to wear the stuff, it itched like hell. That sounds silly to consider torture, but there’s a significant difference between itching for a few minutes until you get a chance to shower and change clothes and itching for hours or days with absolutely no way to fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/138 "2009-05-08T21:00:30Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So do you think being chained in a fetal position for 18 hours is going to cause you agonizing pain, or not? It probably would. I interpreted the guy to be saying that the prisoners were chained hand and foot and also in a fetal position on the floor (because they were chained hand and foot and had no chair). If it meant that they were chained in the way you described earlier then I agree with you. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > From what you said, you agreed with the hair-tearing and the catatonia, but not the urination and defecation. I think I may have misread you as saying that you agreed with those parts because they were the same incident and excluded the other because it wasn’t. Yes, you misread me. I remarked on those being the same incident because it was one incident of torture, not two. > [@](#): > > But if you weren’t excluding the urination and defecation because it didn’t come from the specific example, perhaps you’d care to explain why being forced to sit in your own piss and shit, especially on top of the other methods already described, \*isn’t \*a form of torture. Nothing to explain. It’s uncomfortable and humiliating, but not severe enough to count as torture in my books. BTW, and FTR, I am not trying to “push any buttons” and post my actual views on this and any other subject. I would not even bother to address this type of thing as a general rule, but as it happens I am shortly going to be offline until next Monday or Tuesday and won’t respond to anything further until then, which could be misinterpreted. Have a good weekend all. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/139 "2009-05-08T21:01:03Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Especially given that it adds to the misery substantially. I’ve been in a couple of situations where I was more or less force by circumstance to have an accident…even for the few minutes that I had to wear the stuff, it itched like hell. That sounds silly to consider torture, but there’s a significant difference between itching for a few minutes until you get a chance to shower and change clothes and itching for hours or days with absolutely no way to fix it. Itching, smell, and (most important) _shaming_. This is more of the same game as the shit-smearing and forced masturbation. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663/140 "2009-05-08T21:04:28Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Again, I am not defending torture. I don’t believe these methods constitute torture. Ah; so if I kill people and call it “liberating souls”, I’m not guilty of murder ? What we did IS torture, including by our own standards - except the special “standards” that kick in when when WE do it. > [@yorick73](#): > > I DO believe this is a political witch hunt because the very people waiving the pitchforks were in favor of these techniques at the time. There was bipartisan agreement for once. And everyone involved should be thrown out of office, at the very least. Preferable sent to prison. Everyone involved SHOULD be identified and punished. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-big-deal-over-torture/495663.md?page=8)