# Why the Christian God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2000, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351 "2000-06-14T15:57:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Fast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fast)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/61 "2000-06-17T04:33:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Fast: One needn’t go so far. All one needs to do is simply believe what one wishes, but realize that calling it “truth” is unjustified. I don’t know my beliefs to be true. I _believe_ they’re true (that’s what makes them beliefs), simply because if I didn’t believe they were true I’d believe differently. But I don’t know they’re true, and I’m gonna keep doubting them until the day I die. That’s actually how you have a living faith. John Stuart Mill talks eloquently about this in _On Liberty._ > \*\* Naw, it just looks to me like **soulsling** was getting rather evangelical himself, there. There’s not a person on this board who is not preaching, whether Christian or atheist. The only difference is the message–Christians saying why they believe they are right, and atheists (agnostics, etc.) saying why they believe they are right. The general attitude I have a problem with is the atheist crowd assumes faith is illogical, and therefore not viable, while they assume their own logic to be speaking for itself. Maybe I’m reading too much into people’s posts, but I’ve read the whole thread, and I don’t think I’m very far off-base, if at all. Not really sure what you’re saying about all that truth stuff. I mean, I think I know what you’re saying, but if that’s in response to my previous post, then hopefully the above paragraph clears that up. As far as truth goes, I believe there must be one absolute Truth–that is, one standard. I don’t go for the “what works for you works for you, what works for me works for me” stuff. Obviously a lot of different people believe they have the inside track on Truth, including those who deny believing in anything but themselves (which, IMO, is a religion in itself, with Self as God). So who really knows the Truth? Not any human, I can tell you that much. For someone to be that all-knowing would, by default, make him or her God. We can only hope that we’re right. I believe that Christianity is the Truth, but for me to tell you or anyone else that is not “unjustified,” any more than it is for an atheist to tell me that I’m wrong for saying it’s Truth, because that’s not his concept of Truth. It works both ways … which may have been another point of my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/62 "2000-06-17T04:50:21Z")
Fast, I really liked your post, especially: “I believe there must be one absolute Truth–that is, one standard. I don’t go for the “what works for you works for you, what works for me works for me” stuff.” I was starting to think I was the only one on this bboard who believed this! 😃 You then said: "So who really knows the Truth? Not any human, I can tell you that much. For someone to be that all-knowing would, by default, make him or her God. We can only hope that we’re right. " Sorry to have to disagree here, at least partly. If I find a Truth and believe it, that doesn’t make me ALL-knowing. It just means I’ve learned one Truth out of perhaps billions of truths. I’ve still got much more to learn. God is the only one with all truth, obviously. I would agree that no human can know ALL truth about EVERY subject known to man. Our heads would explode before we got there! But it doesn’t preclude a human from learning A SINGLE truth, or certain KEY truths. Who says they can’t be found? Stop and think about this. Why would God want to keep truth hidden from you? The Bible makes it clear that you CAN FIND the truth IF you search for it with all your heart. Yeah it takes some digging on your part to find it, but it’s worth it! Again, I dont mean ALL truth about EVERYthing. But you can learn truth about who you are, why you were created, and the kind of relationship God wants to have with you. ---
**Author:** ![soulsling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@soulsling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulsling)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/63 "2000-06-17T05:10:27Z")
actually **fast** , i’m not atheist, or agnostic, and i responded to the actual OP to begin with. I was neither evengelical. Go back and read the OP, as well as the posts that follow before making your assumptions, because as accusation, they are wrong. I follow a practice, it’s worldwide, and extremely popular in that it has been picked up by so many in such a short period of time. It is an offshoot of Buddhism and Daoism, closer to the original form of Brahminism, which both Hinduism and Buddhism come from. I don’t preach, i answered the OP as to Why i chose to follow the path i chose, as in, what led to that decision. Never did i preach, but seeing the few Christians that appeared here neglected to answer the OP, and instead preach their beliefs, informed them that not only were they unjustified in calling any of their statements truth, but unjustified in making accusations of “other” religions without having known anything about them. basically **fast** , it’s called talking out of your ass. Truth hurts? yeah, thought so. ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/64 "2000-06-17T05:15:33Z")
Ok, let’s parse this down into the simplest terms, because your’e still not getting it. I’ve added emphasis on your main points: > [@](#): > > \*\* > You said “that’s a belief in itself” regarding my belief that the Bible is true. Yes it is a belief, but the fact that I believe it doesn’t make it any more or less true. _The Bible is God’s Word to mankind whether I “believe” it or not._ If tomorrow I decide not to believe it, it changes nothing. It is what it is.\*\* I had hope for you until the italics part. First you say your belief in the bible is a belief, but then you _ **assert** _ without evidence that it is unquestionably true and all who doubt are wrong. Obviously its truthfulness IS questionable, as many do question it. And you offer so substantiation of your assertions. > [@](#): > > **The key to reading the Bible is reading it without an agenda, which I’ll admit is difficult. In the vast majority of cases, it just says what it says and there’s nothing difficult in understanding it. We come up with various “interpretations” to make us feel comfortable or to advance a particualar “agenda”.** And where exactly did you gain this idea from? It does not say this in the Bible. > [@](#): > > **I picked a silly example, but really most of the so called interpretation battles are similar. Don’t get me wrong, there ARE legitimate passages that aren’t clear. There ARE some passages of scripture that appear at first glance to contradict each other, and it takes study to figure out what God was getting at.** And why do you claim that you know what God is getting at rather than someone else’s which disagrees with yours? Who gave you the “key” to know what God was getting at, and, as an objective observer, why should your opinion hold any more weight? > [@](#): > > **So my point is – my “interpretation” and your “interpretation” of the Bible are worth about 10 cents between us. The only thing that matters is what the Bible actually says, not what I want to make it say.** Ok, You say it says one thing, I say it says another, who’s right? Look, I don’t mean to pick on you, but how can you not realize that you haven’t said anything that makes the slightest bit of sense. Your arguments are only assertions, and you often contradict yourself (as in the “it is true no matter what anyone believes”). Your arguments only make sense if all your assumptions are already accepted. pinqy ---
**Author:** ![Fast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Fast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fast)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/65 "2000-06-17T05:50:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > actually **fast** , i’m not atheist, or agnostic, and i responded to the actual OP to begin with. I was neither evengelical. Go back and read the OP, as well as the posts that follow before making your assumptions, because as accusation, they are wrong. I follow a practice, it’s worldwide, and extremely popular in that it has been picked up by so many in such a short period of time. It is an offshoot of Buddhism and Daoism, closer to the original form of Brahminism, which both Hinduism and Buddhism come from. I don’t preach, i answered the OP as to Why i chose to follow the path i chose, as in, what led to that decision. Never did i preach, but seeing the few Christians that appeared here neglected to answer the OP, and instead preach their beliefs, informed them that not only were they unjustified in calling any of their statements truth, but unjustified in making accusations of “other” religions without having known anything about them. basically **fast** , it’s called talking out of your ass. Truth hurts? yeah, thought so. > \*\* Actually, if you read my last post, you’ll see that I said that I did read _all_ the posts on this thread, including the OP. Also, if you read my first post on this thread, you’ll see that I answered the OP directly myself. One does not have to be Christian to be evangelical, or to preach. Also, I have yet to see a Christian on this board speak as judgmentally and harshly as you have. You are very angry. Jesus loves you and can heal your anger. ~Oops! Was that bait?~ **FriendofGod,** I was trying to use general terms for the sake of brevity. I agree with what you said about Truth, in that we can know it, as revealed by God through his Word. I was talking more about the umbrella of Truth as a whole … where only God knows everything about everything, and we know parts but can only guess at some. I think there is a lot of Truth that has not been revealed in the Word, so far as humans aren’t prepared for the entire Truth. ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/66 "2000-06-17T12:14:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > I find this thread interesting in illustrating how differently members of the same species can operate. Biologically, FriendofGod and I are operating with the same basic equipment, but each of us “knows” things the other is incapable of accepting/believing/perceiving. > > CollegeStudent, the quotations to bible verses you provided are only convincing if you accept them as infallible truth, and the work of God other than man > Sidenote, Monty, I’m not sure all Christians and Muslims would agree they worship the same God. Does anyone else know? > > And then I wonder why, if someone believes in this one unprovable/supernatural theory, why not others? > > I appreciate the opportunity this thread has provided me to put some of my thoughts/confusions/questions/concerns/prejudices “down on paper”. > > Now get to work! It isn’t the weekend yet. > > \*\* Thank You again 🆒 … for echoing my sentiments … I am not sure if you feel complimented by that “Great Minds Think Alike” may be true but I think you should know I have been labelled Paranoid (healthy cynic I think) , a Pathological Liar (simply imaginative / creative) … and a Sociopath (Hey I like people it is this loving/respecting them thing I haven’t got the hang of) 😃 … Unfortunately there is so much else posted here I want to respond to but my plans / obligations have change so it will be awhile … closing thought while the Triune (? sp) Christian God appears based on the Jewish (Hebrew )and related to the Islamic dieties it is vastly different. OH I wish I had time … This thread is so active & intense and so timely to my life conflicts at the moment but must go… ---
**Author:** ![soulsling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@soulsling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulsling)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/67 "2000-06-17T13:16:03Z")
in what way am i judgemental that you are not? you’ve already judged that i am angry. wrong. you’ve judged that i am judging everyone else here harshly, wrong again. I’ve stated facts, facts that can be backed up, unlike anyone who is quoting from a book that has been written/printed in so many different versions, different ways, different translations, and stating that it is truth with out the factual evidence, making it faith, not truth. so i suppose the truth does hurt you **fast** , or you woulldn’t be so judgemental… all men are judgemental, we judge, we determing things by our reactions to others, and make decisions based on those reactions, thus, we are all judgemental. You cannot accuse someone of being harsh and judgemental while implying that you are not being that way. It was YOU who judged me if you’ll recall. YOU who stated that i was evengelical. and yes, nobody but the christians were preaching. everyone else simply answered the OP, and explained why they chose what they chose, they did not tell everyone else that their way was the right way, or that “other” religions were wrong in some way. How prejudiced the christian faith must be based on yourself and some of the fellows on this thread. Not once have i or any “other” religion stated we were the correct and all others wrong. I don’t get angry at little things like that **fast** , it’s a waste of my time and energy. I simply point out facts, logic, and reason. You have shown none of those. You have decided to simply state that if it’s in the bible, it’s true. How so? How is it TRUTH just because it’s written down. How can you be so sure its "god"s words. Who can prove it? I’ll tell you who. NO ONE cAN, it’s faith. Not truth. If you want to believe it’s truth, that’s for you to believe, but not to state as fact. Only as faith. Admit the truth, and take responsibility for your actions, explain these are your beliefs as fact, don’t state they are fact. there is a difference. Oh, but i suppose you are going to tell me that you don’t need to take responsibility for any of your actions, or what you say, because jesus loves, and you are already saved :::copout!?::: ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2000, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/68 "2000-06-18T02:41:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > ricksummon asked: > > 1. What happened to all the people who lived and died BEFORE Jesus was born? > Back in the Old Testament people were saved the same way we are today by faith and looking towards the cross. > > 2. The age of accountability is the key factor here. A person is “protected” for a period of time before they come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. If they die before this time, they will be taken to heaven. BUT if they can understand what it means to be saved and they reject him, they are damned to a devil’s hell for an eternity. BAPTISM IS NOT A KEY FACTOR IF ONE WILL BE SAVED!! > > 3. Romans 1:20 says “For since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” Scriptures declare that at the day of judgement no one will have an excuse for accepting Christ. > There are three witnesses here that declare of God: > > 4. Creation. Creation declares that there is a God. All of this could not come about by some accident… > That is what is like saying that this world came about by accident. There are materials within the earth’s core that had to be cooled within a 1000th of a second to form the way that they did, thus proving it was an instantaneous event… > > 5. Conscicous. Our conscious declares that we are doing wrong and tells us that there is another way. > > 6. The Holy Spirit. God’s spirit is sent to convict us of our sins and bring us to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. > \*\* 😕 😕 Question 1 : the age of accountablility and a period of grace what is this based on … 😕 Question 2 I also strongly believe the Universe was created it’s complexity **appears to me to be ordered** however it does not automatically follow that it 1s the handiwork of the God of the Bible. Question 3(a) the formation of elements in the earth’s core ?? in an instant what elements, how sampled, what scientific source is this from… 3(b) a lot of science seems to contradict parts of the Bible so are you only citing what is supportive … Question 4 I may be misreading your 2nd & 3rd witness statements but … \*\*ROMANS 2: 13 -15 For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified (14) For When Gentiles who do not have the law by nature do the things in the law, these although not having the law, are a law to themselves.(15) Who show the work of the law written in their hearts , their consecience also bearing witness and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them. Seems to indicate that by (1) acknowledging the creator and (2) living a moral life Jesus will judge me fit to enter heaven … ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2000, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/69 "2000-06-18T03:33:13Z")
pinqy you said regarding the Bible: “Obviously its truthfulness IS questionable, as many do question it. And you offer no substantiation of your assertions.” First … JUST because people question something, does that make it’s truthfulness questionable? If we all started questioning the law of gravity, does that make it any less true? Second … no I didn’t offer substatiation. I’m sure you’ve seen plenty of arguments/evidence that the Bible is what it claims to be … the perfectly inspired Word of God (whether you believed the evidence or not). I simply state unapologetically that the Bible’s claims about itself are true. I’ve seen the fruit in the lives of people who believe this, and in my own life. I’m aware that you and many others on this board don’t believe this about the Bible, but I do. Therefore, yes I will make that assumption. And no, I’m not going to continually back it up every time I use the Bible. That’s an entire topic in and of itself. I don’t expect someone to believe it just cuz I say it. To be honest pinqy, I quote the Bible because I believe in it’s power. I’ve seen MANY people who were convinced that the Bible WASN’T the inspired Word of God who heard it’s words over time and were eventually convinced. That’s because it’s NOT an ordinary book … it’s a “living” book. The Holy Spirit is continually speaking through it to testify to God’s Love and Power. And yes, to answer your probable question, obviously I’ve also seen MANY who heard the Bible over and over and STILL didn’t believe it. But hey, one can try :D. Quote: “And where exactly did you gain this idea from? (regarding reading the Bible without an agenda). It does not say this in the Bible.” True, it doesnt. It’s merely observation over the years. Hey, actually for all I know the Bible DOES address this. I’ve never personally studied it. Maybe it does or doesnt, but either way, like I said, it was merely observation. Quote: "And why do you claim that you know what God is getting at rather than someone else’s which disagrees with yours? Who gave you the “key” to know what God was getting at, and, as an objective observer, why should your opinion hold any more weight? " I DON’T always claim that I know what God is getting at in some of the genuinely “sticky” issues in the Bible that aren’t as clear cut. My opinion shouldn’t hold any more weight than anyone else. Again, I was addressing the genuinely difficult areas of the Bible. Many genuine believers in Christ have different amicably over some of these areas. Quote: “Ok, You say it says one thing, I say it says another, who’s right?” I won’t get into a huge debate on this point, but as an example … what would you say the breakfast verse I quoted earlier was saying? There are some things that you just read and ask “Okay, what is this trying to say?” Let’s take a deeper verse, 1 Corinthians 13:4a “Love is patient, love is kind.” Now what does this mean? Hmmmm … I think it means … that love is patient and love is kind! Now don’t get me wrong, there is another issue here and that’s the issue of APPLICATIONS (and I don’t mean software). There are THOUSANDS of APPLICATIONS of the truth of 1 Corinthians 13:4a. Love is patient can mean to me … I’m driving down the interstate behind a 75 year old lady and there’s no way to pass her … so I ASK GOD FOR THE GRACE TO EXPRESS LOVE THROUGH PATIENCE!!! Or I am teaching someone to use a computer and I’m having to show them every little step … I am expressing love through patience. So there are thousands of applications, but one interpretation. The interpretation is … love is patient, love is kind. Not hard. Again, SOME Bible passages ARE more difficult to interpret than that. I’m not denying that. There are some that AREN’T clear … and to be honest that’s some of where the fun is in the Bible … digging for treasure to try to figure out what God might’ve been getting at! Okay, enough for now. Im off to bed. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2000, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/70 "2000-06-18T03:40:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Monty - no problem at all w/ the response. Thanks, Dinsdale. > [@](#): > > I find this thread interesting in illustrating how differently members of the same species can operate. Agreed. > [@](#): > > Biologically, FriendofGod and I are operating with the same basic equipment, but each of us “knows” things the other is incapable of accepting/believing/perceiving. Well, maybe one (or more) of the individuals in question is not incapable of understanding; merely refusing to understand. > [@](#): > > To perhaps focus this discussion, I feel no one has answered one basic and perhaps childish question I have posed twice. Does the practicing Catholic believe the virtuous Hindi goes to heaven? The Catholic dogma is that the virtuous Hindi is destined for perdition because he did not become a Christian. > [@](#): > > ricksummon, interesting variations on this theme. Thanks. CollegeStudent, the quotations to bible verses you provided are only convincing if you accept them as infallible truth, and the work of God other than man. Would the believers like to weigh in on this. I’ll only adress the part about the verses. There’s a wide spectrum in belief among Christians about this: some believe that the verses are the prophets of old writing a la dictation, some believe that the verses are inspired writings, and some believe that the verses are a compilatioin from other religions. Of course, there’s a lot of “in between” beliefs also. > [@](#): > > Further, could you suggest whether you believe your views are those commonly held by members of your faith? I think that my personal views are commonly held among some groups of members of my faith. But, of course, there are those who really don’t like to think long or hard about matters of faith. > [@](#): > > (Gee, big surprise that on this board even the folk I disagree with seem more reasonable than most I meet in daily life!) Agreed, for the most part. > [@](#): > > Sidenote, Monty, I’m not sure all Christians and Muslims would agree they worship the same God. Does anyone else know? Many Christians believe that the Muslims worship a false deity; however, according the to the Quran, their deity is the one which the Jews and Christians (and other “People of the Book”) worship. > [@](#): > > I do have to disagree with the position that a believer “knows” his belief in the same way you can “know” things about the physical world. Welcome to the world of the faith only believers saying their faith is the only true knowledge. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying the belief is necessarily invalid, inferior, or anything else, but it is different and not entirely logical/reasonable. And then I wonder why, if someone believes in this one unprovable/supernatural theory, why not others? I’ve stated above that belief/faith is not logical. Why believe then? I’ve mentioned on this board a while back that I do not discount the possibility that I’m willfully deluding myself. Maybe it’s just part of being human to latch onto a “feel-good” notion. > [@](#): > > I appreciate the opportunity this thread has provided me to put some of my thoughts/confusions/questions/concerns/prejudices “down on paper”. > > Now get to work! It isn’t the weekend yet. Heck, you need to move out here where the weekend is only one day long! ---
**Author:** ![bradysg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc348/32.png) [@bradysg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bradysg)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2000, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/71 "2000-06-18T04:44:54Z")
About the afterlife… Who are we to expect anything after what we already have now? Why are we so special that after eighty or so years, we trancend to some other plane. Whats the point? Why should we toil in life if there’s something beyond? Even if there is a God, that doesn’t mean that there will be an afterlife. Giving us normal life should be enough. ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2000, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/72 "2000-06-18T11:07:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > JUST because people question something, does that make it’s truthfulness questionable? If we all started questioning the law of gravity, does that make it any less true?.. > Second … no I didn’t offer substatiation… I simply state unapologetically that the Bible’s claims about itself are true… I’ve seen the fruit in the lives of people who believe this, and in my own life …Therefore, yes I will make that assumption …I don’t expect someone to believe it just cuz I say it. > To be honest pinqy, I quote the Bible because I believe in it’s power… That’s because it’s NOT an ordinary book … it’s a “living” book… The Holy Spirit is continually speaking through it to testify to God’s Love and Power. > And yes, to answer your probable question, obviously I’ve also seen MANY who heard the Bible over and over and STILL didn’t believe it. But hey, one can try :D: > > Quote: > “And where exactly did you gain this idea from? (regarding reading the Bible without an agenda). It does not say this in the Bible.” > True, it doesnt. It’s merely observation over the years. Hey, actually for all I know the Bible DOES address this. I’ve never personally studied it. Maybe it does or doesnt, but either way, like I said, it was merely observation. > > Again, SOME Bible passages ARE more difficult to interpret than that. I’m not denying that. There are some that AREN’T clear … > Okay, enough for now. Im off to bed. > \*\* I am so sorry but I am compelled to respond directly to this … I will not hijack this thread … I will start a new one specifically to address the basic issues … However the short version 1 - The scary and tragic part is that you claim to be honest in your beliefs … 2- Please just reconcile 2 - Samuel 18:18 with 2 Samuel 14 : 27 I also have to attend to other matters … So as Arnold said \*\* I’ll be back 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2000, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/73 "2000-06-18T11:43:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Monty said: “B. Faith, by definition, is not rooted in Proof.” > This is to me a fatal flaw in your equation. Then you are obviously unacquainted with the concept of logical proof. > [@](#): > > Faith is not just blindly saying, “I’m going to throw my mind away and ‘just believe’” cuz it feels good and it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling." Pretty near everyone who discusses such things considers faith to be “knowledge of things which can not be proven” and therefore directly opposes your definition. > [@](#): > > Faith is saying, “God, you make sense. It makes sense to submit my life to my creator, especially when He’s so good and loving and just. I’ve seen EVIDENCE of your love and goodness in my life, and therefore I will trust you with my life.” That’s faith. It IS solidly based on evidence and yes, even proof. Actually, what you’ve seen is evidence which you have ascribed to a being of your choice. But if you were to have incontrovertible proof of said being, then it wouldn’t be faith anymore; it would be proven knowledge. > [@](#): > > Yesterday Man said: “You don’t have to spend your life worrying about sinning, going to hell, or earning your way into heaven. You have no spiritual obligations to anyone or anything”. > I’m sure you meant this partly in jest, but I’m still gonna comment :D. Actually, many philosophers say the same thing with no hint of jesting. > [@](#): > > The first part of your sentence is true. It’s AFTER your life is over, when you find out that God and hell and heaven ARE in fact real, that being an athiest really starts to bite. As for spiritual obligations – well, you DO have them, you just choose not to act on them. Every person is obligated to serve God. Not the way I read the Bible. Everyone is obligated to serve both God and mankind. **snip** > [@](#): > > As to your most interesting quote: “So do you accept the possibility that you are wrong?” > I was wondering when someone would ask me that! 😃 > Here’s my answer – it’s not about me or you being right or wrong. It’s about one thing: what does the Bible say? If the Bible says something is true, I believe it, pure and simple. I’m not “right” – the BIBLE is right. > Let me put it this way. If ever I believe something, and someone can make a convincing case from the Bible that I am wrong, I will change my views! Plain and simple. It’s happened to me before, and it’ll happen again I’m sure. In short: No, you do not accept the possibility of your interpretation being wrong. > [@](#): > > pinqy: I know this is the answer you would expect from me, but I believe answer 3 is the only one that applies all the time, with answer 1 or 2 creeping in from time to time. If you were Satan, wouldn’t you want to provide the world with plenty of good sounding alternatives to the truth? Actually, if I were Satan, I’d kind of like to know why I’m being condemned for doing God’s dirty work. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2000, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/74 "2000-06-18T22:06:15Z")
Jackel, a quick response to your two quotes: “The scary and tragic part is that you claim to be honest in your beliefs” Forgive me if I’m misreading your quote … but are you pretty much saying that I’m being dishonest? That these are not really things that I believe? “Please just reconcile 2 - Samuel 18:18 with 2 Samuel 14 : 27” For those who are curious, the verses in question are: “Three sons and a daughter were born to Absalom.” (2 Sam 14:27) “During his lifetime Absalom had taken a pillar and erected it in the King’s Valley as a monument to himself, for he thought, ‘I have no son to carry on the memory of my name.’” (2 Sam 18:18) Interesting! I don’t know. Did it occur to you that maybe his three sons died when they were young, so now Absalom has no son to carry on the memory of his name? Or maybe there’s another reason. That’s be an interesting study. Do you realize how lazy it would be to read those two passages and say, “WELL! That proves it! The Bible contradicts itself, it isn’t God’s Holy Word.” Ridiculous! It’s like your LOOKING for a reason for the Bible to contradict, almost HOPING it will. The truth is, some of the seeming contradictions of the Bible contain some of the biggest truths of the Bible if you study them to find out how they reconcile. If you lazily say, “Oh well, the Bible isn’t true after all”, you miss out on some of it’s biggest treasures. And NO I’m not going to start commenting on a string of “What about this one? What about this one?” passages. I won’t know the answers to all of them anyway, maybe most of them. SOME I have studied and found some answers to. They are definately interesting. Monty, I’m going to hit the highlights of some of your comments: “Actually, what you’ve seen is evidence which you have ascribed to a being of your choice.” No, God has shown Himself to me countless ways. It’s not something I chose … He chose to intervene in my life and the lives of others and I’ve seen it. “In short: No, you do not accept the possibility of your interpretation being wrong.” No, you missed my point. You ignored the examples I gave earlier of Jesus inviting His disciples to breakfast and the Bible defining two of the aspects of love. My point is … the interpretation game is a joke most of the time. The Bible says what it says regardless of what I think or you think about it. SOME parts of the Bible are a lot more unclear and open to interpretation, and some are just as clear as crystal. In cases where the Bible is QUESTIONABLE as to what it’s getting at, SURE my interpretation could be wrong! In cases where it’s clear as crystal … well, there’s nothing to really “interpret” so the question is moot. You just READ it! ---
**Author:** ![gillygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@gillygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gillygirl)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2000, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/75 "2000-06-19T00:56:24Z")
why have a god that gives you free will just to let some 2000 year old dead guy “run” your life? (i know, that can be considered your “choice” but hey, what kind of a choice is that really? be a zombie or burn in hell?) … and to answer the OP, i choose not to have a god because i think what religion can explain, science can explain better. anyway, i just finished a 12 hour shift at work and my “deep thinking” level is about zero, so thats the best i can do right now LOL ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2000, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/76 "2000-06-19T03:07:55Z")
Hi gillygirl 🙂 A quick response: Jesus is not a 2000-year old dead guy. He is God. He existed before the earth was created and will exist long after it’s gone. He was on EARTH 2000 years ago in human form. He died and rose from the dead. He’s alive TODAY, right now! I know this for certain cuz He’s living in me. And as for Him running me life … this isn’t just ANYone you know. It’s God! God knows how to run my life better than anyone cuz He MADE me! If I create something, I’m the best person qualified to use it cuz I know how it can best be used. Ditto with God. God loves you gillygirl and wants to have a love relationship with you. I know you may not believe that but it’s true! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/77 "2000-06-20T11:33:39Z")
In other words: Nope, you’re not listening to anyone here, not even to other believers & you’re not willing to discount the possiblity that you’re interpreting stuff and interpreting it incorrectly. Please note that I said “possibility.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/78 "2000-06-20T12:53:11Z")
When did the definition of “Truth” become “A statement of belief so powerful that it may never be questioned or examined.”? Can you provide any evidence, outside of the circular reasoning of “The Bible is the word of god because the Bible says that it is the word of god!”? Statements of belief brought on by exposure to only one version of one faction of one denomination of one religion are not considered to be compelling evidence by people trying to find out the facts. FYI, personally I have trouble believing anyone who adds smiley faces to most of their messages. It makes me believe that the person either doesn’t have a very broad range of emotion, or that they are trying to sell me something. This isn’t an attack per se, but have you ever talked to somebody who smiles all the time, not matter what the situation was. Scary. ---
**Author:** ![soulsling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@soulsling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulsling)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/79 "2000-06-20T13:05:42Z")
thanx **slythe** , been trying to say just that. they don’t listen. ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351/80 "2000-06-20T13:44:31Z")
FoG, I’ve never heard of anyone playing an “interpretation game” for something like “Jesus had breakfast.” So your example is fatuous. The key points are ones such as when Jesus said first to Peter then to the other Apostles “Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” what that exactly means and whether or not this power is also granted to the spirtual descendents of the Apostles. This is a major split between the Catholic Church and Protestant sects. Also, when it says in Joshua 10:13, “And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.” What’s the “plain” interpretation of that? And this connects strongly with the whole question of Genesis as “fact” or allegory. There are major conflicts over these, and others and it’s rather disingenuous to say “the Bible says what it says” when the meaning is definitely important. Oh, and “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” has caused many needless deaths. What is meant by the word “witch” and does it apply to modern practitioners of Wicca? There have also been questions on the “anti-homosexual” parts of the Bible. Why were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed? Practice of homosexuality or discourtesy towards strangers? Honest people have debated many of these for many years. The fact that people do question the Bible IS important, in that these are honest, earnest concerns. Yes, there are gratuitous attacks on the Bible that are really meaningless, but there are also interpretations that have led to persecutions over heresy, and surely you don’t consider the thousands of splits in Christian sects to be meaningless or trivial “games?” My whole point is that things are NOT as simple as you apparantly believe. You still have not presented support for why you consider the Bible to be true. Many intelligent, honest people (such as myself) have thouroughly read the Bible and failed to find truth. On what basis do you automatically say that we are wrong, without accepting the possibility that you yourself could be wrong? pinqy [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-christian-god/22351.md?page=5)