# Why the demonization of Obama? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488 "2008-07-06T21:11:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/121 "2008-07-08T02:32:11Z")
In the [Huffington Post’s report](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/18/obama-accuser-larry-sincl_n_107900.html) on this high point of American political discourse, we make the acquaintance of the estimable Mr. Sinclair’s estimable mouthpiece: > [@](#): > > a kilted lawyer (with a suspended license) named Montgomery Blair Sibley, who informed those assembled that his preferences in dress were arrived at as a way to secure comfort for his unusually large sexual organs. “I don’t know why men wear pants,” he said with a poker face. “It’s a function of male genitalia. If you’re size normal or smaller, you’re probably comfortable with [pants]. … Those at the other end of the spectrum find them quite confining.” > > “I asked him to wear a suit and tie,” Mr. Sinclair said ruefully. Then, he admitted to suffering from a brain tumor. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/122 "2008-07-08T04:14:35Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I see you have edited to add the part about contempt. If you want to parse the difference between “found him guilty of anything” and “found him to be in contempt of court”, feel free. [/QUOTE] Those two things are, in fact, quite different. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/123 "2008-07-08T04:36:28Z")
Larry Sinclair is a multiple ex-con, a career criminal and con artist who has never produced any evidence that he’s ever so much as met Barack Obama. He failed a lie detector test about it and his story has changed numerous times and become more and more far fetched (he’s accusing Obama of murder now). His whole story seems to be a scam designed to solicit money for an alleged legal fund. The guy is so lacking in either credibility or supporting evidence that even Fox News and right wing radio has stayed away from him. I think even most of the rightie blogs have lost interest at this point, although he reportedly received a celebrity welcome from nutjob Hillary supporters during that Rules Committe meeting back in May. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/124 "2008-07-08T11:08:06Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] You’ve seen _some_ evidence. You just haven’t seen undeniable evidence. [/quote] No, I haven’t seen _any_ evidence. Allegations aren’t evidence, unless you want to agree that we have seen evidence that Obama is a Muslim or that he got a blow job. > [@](#): > > IMO the folks who went after Clinton over the Monica affair did a much greater disservice to this country than he did. If the HW Bush affair is true that sure makes them some hypocritical bastards doesn’t it? Wouldn’t the hypocrites be the ones saying “a politician’s private life shouldn’t matter” about adulteries and lies that really happened, but then spreading smears and falsehoods about their opponents? > [@](#): > > You say “of course it’s false” but it seems to me that you have no greater reason for disbelief than you do belief other than your personal preference. Well, that, and a complete lack of evidence, and the fact that the smear only got circulated as an attempt to distract from Clinton’s misdoings. And the fact that the Washington press corps, who lies awake nights thinking of how lovely it would be to dredge up a scandal about a politician, tried their damnedest and couldn’t find jack shit. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/125 "2008-07-08T13:11:47Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] No, I haven’t seen _any_ evidence. Allegations aren’t evidence, unless you want to agree that we have seen evidence that Obama is a Muslim or that he got a blow job. [/QUOTE] It’s a matter of weighing all available information against the allegations. We know Obama had Muslim family members. Attended a school that was primarily Muslim. things like that are factual and might be considered as evidence although far from conclusive. Does that seem reasonable? There are a lot of facts involved in the allegations about Bush Sr and Fitzgerald. At the very least they’ve had a long association. From 74 to at least 92. As Bush’s career took it’s twists and turns Fitzgerald’s always seemed to follow him. That doesn’t prove a sexual liaison but it is evidence. If you choose not to believe it fine. > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t the hypocrites be the ones saying “a politician’s private life shouldn’t matter” about adulteries and lies that really happened, but then spreading smears and falsehoods about their opponents? Yes,\* if \*that happened. According to what I’ve read I’d say the affair is more likely to be true than not but you’re free to come to your own conclusions. btw; I think a falsehood is something that has been proven to be false. That doesn’t apply here. > [@](#): > > Well, that, and a complete lack of evidence, and the fact that the smear only got circulated as an attempt to distract from Clinton’s misdoings. And the fact that the Washington press corps, who lies awake nights thinking of how lovely it would be to dredge up a scandal about a politician, tried their damnedest and couldn’t find jack shit. > > Regards, > Shodan I just pointed out rather clearly that there isn’t a _complete lack of evidence_. Regardless, your bias is pretty obvious. There are reasonable explanations that you reject because of it. The fact is neither you or I know for sure, and I for one don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/126 "2008-07-08T13:34:52Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] I just pointed out rather clearly that there isn’t a _complete lack of evidence_. [/quote] No, a"a complete lack of evidence" is quite correct. Allegations aren’t evidence. > [@](#): > > Regardless, your bias is pretty obvious. There are reasonable explanations that you reject because of it. So the assumption is that any two people who work together for long enough can be assumed to be having an affair. This sounds reasonable to you? So Obama can be assumed to have had an affair with [Tony Rezko](http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/5683), right? They’ve known each other for a long time, worked together, and it is an open secret that Obama is bisexual. I read a guy on the Internet who says that he knows a guy who says Obama told him. So that’s evidence right there. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/127 "2008-07-08T13:42:20Z")
[QUOTE=Saint Cad] Getting back to the OP. Obama is very charismatic and in politics like we saw with Clinton, those sort of politicians draw extreme reactions. Clinton was a mediocre president yet he is either a demi-god or Satan incarnate depending on who you talk to and as one side goes more extreme, the other side feel compelled to pull the pendulum more extremely to their side. For the record, I don’t like Obama at all. I feel he is smug (in a I know more than you sort of way) and too inexperienced to be president. To be honest, there is something that bugs me about him (and no it is not his skin color). I don’t know whether it is arrogance, the idea that he is out of his depth on the issues, or something else, but I truly don’t like how he comes across. Why do I bring this up? Because it is comment like this that start the pendulum swinging. A pro-Obama doper will now disagree with me and compare him to Abraham Lincoln on the experience issue. An anti-Obama doper will disagree with them and using Rev. Jeramiah, compare Obama to Malcom X. Back and forth it will go until one side ponificates that Obama walks on water and the otherside contends that Obama will single-handedly end western civilization. [/QUOTE] As someone said,\*\* I want my president to know a lot more than me\*\* We recently had a thread comparing past presidents and their histories and experience. {Military, political etc} The basic conclusion was that no experience really prepares you for the presidency. Military backgrounds have produced good and bad presidents. No military background , the same. Political experience, the same. IMO it’s about the character of the person and how they handle the pressures and the power. There are a lot of forces pulling on a POTUS and a lot of temptations that go with power. I don’t see any reason to think Obama is out of his depth on the issues anymore than McCain is. The president has to have wise council who are experts in certain areas at his disposal. He puts together a staff, a team, and makes decisions accordingly. The almost rock star status Obama has received is unusual and a bit disturbing. It is a historic event for a qualified black man to have a serious shot at the presidency. In a time when the country has pretty serious problems people are hungry to hope. Hungry to believe we can turn things around and create a better society. Obama has reminded us several times that we need to work together to find solutions and I think most of his supporters understand this. The noisy fringe that put him on a pedestal are not the norm IMO. As an Obama supporter I hope that his words are sincere and I have a realistic grasp on the dangers and potholes ahead. Considering what the last eight years have brought us I honestly think he is the better choice and a step in the right direction. We, voters republican, democrat, and independent, need to begin to hold our elected officials to a higher standard of integrity and transparency. That’s an important thing Obama represents to me and I’ll be prepared to let him know if he lets me down. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/128 "2008-07-08T13:47:16Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] As someone said,\*\* I want my president to know a lot more than me\*\* … [/QUOTE] To emphasize: I want him to know things I’m not even _allowed_ to know! And I want him to go the extra mile, I want him to confront evidence that fits perfectly within his preferred framework of opinion and\* insist\* on pursuing whatever evidence might contradict that. A quality sadly lacking in the person currently infecting the Oval Office. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/129 "2008-07-08T14:03:49Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] No, a"a complete lack of evidence" is quite correct. Allegations aren’t evidence.So the assumption is that any two people who work together for long enough can be assumed to be having an affair. This sounds reasonable to you? So Obama can be assumed to have had an affair with [Tony Rezko](http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/5683), right? They’ve known each other for a long time, worked together, and it is an open secret that Obama is bisexual. I read a guy on the Internet who says that he knows a guy who says Obama told him. So that’s evidence right there. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] Perhaps you could look up **reasonable** {hint} it has to do with the\* reason\* and _reasoning_. Is there any evidence that their relationship was sexual rather than professional? Well, there’s no cum stained dress or photo of them kissing and groping, so I guess there isn’t. When considering allegations we look at available facts and try to come to some reasonable conclusion. I’m only asking that we try to apply the same standards of rational thinking to both political parties. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/130 "2008-07-08T14:05:43Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] To emphasize: I want him to know things I’m not even _allowed_ to know! And I want him to go the extra mile, I want him to confront evidence that fits perfectly within his preferred framework of opinion and\* insist\* on pursuing whatever evidence might contradict that. A quality sadly lacking in the person currently infecting the Oval Office. [/QUOTE] Excellent point. It’s another thing that attracts me to Obama. He seems to want to look at all the pertinent information and invite dissenting opinion before making decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/131 "2008-07-08T14:37:55Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Perhaps you could look up **reasonable** {hint} it has to do with the\* reason\* and _reasoning_. Is there any evidence that their relationship was sexual rather than professional? Well, there’s no cum stained dress or photo of them kissing and groping, so I guess there isn’t. [/quote] And there is no photo of Bush groping anyone, nor any cum-stained dress. Yet you claim that it is more likely than not that he was having an affair. This is apparently based on the fact of a long-term association, and unsupported allegations. Obam and Rezko have a long-term association, and there are unsupported allegations that Obama got a blow job from a male. > [@](#): > > I’m only asking that we try to apply the same standards of rational thinking to both political parties. Which is exactly what I have done. When I apply the same standard, I conclude that neither man is likely to have had an affair. When you apply it, you conclude that Bush did but Obama didn’t. Same standard, same lack of evidence - different conclusions. > [@](#): > > As someone said, I want my president to know a lot more than me Field’s pretty open then, is it? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/132 "2008-07-08T14:44:52Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] …Field’s pretty open then, is it?.. [/QUOTE] Cute. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/133 "2008-07-08T14:51:38Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Field’s pretty open then, is it? Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] Probably one less than you would guess 🙂 good one though {mods, we’re only playing, no disrespect intended} ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/134 "2008-07-08T15:00:38Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] And there is no photo of Bush groping anyone, [/QUOTE] Really? did you check out my link to him patting whatshername’s butt? That was fairly recent. > [@](#): > > Which is exactly what I have done. When I apply the same standard, I conclude that neither man is likely to have had an affair. When you apply it, you conclude that Bush did but Obama didn’t. Same standard, same lack of evidence - different conclusions. > > Regards, > Shodan The supporting facts are hardly the same. Using the Obama /muslim accusation, we come to the same conclusion. We can’t really know, but IMO what constitutes a reasonable guess is a different matter. I’m not saying disbelief is unreasonable in the Bush affair issue. I’m saying the things you presented as factual are unreasonable {as facts} Possible, sure. Factual? , you can’t know that. Reason dictates we at least acknowledge that. Let’s move on shall we. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/135 "2008-07-08T15:19:05Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Really? did you check out my link to him patting whatshername’s butt? That was fairly recent. [/quote] [Are we still applying the same standard of evidence?](http://wonkette.com/388436/dirty-photo-of-obama-groping-hillarys-nethers) > [@](#): > > Let’s move on shall we. Fair enough. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/136 "2008-07-08T16:06:46Z")
Does anybody besides me think this Shodan argument has become totally pointless? It’s really degenerated the quality of the debate. No, there’s no credible evidence of affairs for HW Bush or Obama. Let’s move on. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/137 "2008-07-08T16:10:34Z")
At any rate, almost nobody is demonizing Obama for his purported sexual behavior. It’s all about other things. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/138 "2008-07-08T16:17:30Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] At any rate, almost nobody is demonizing Obama for his purported sexual behavior… [/QUOTE] They say that once you go Barack, you never go back. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/139 "2008-07-08T16:19:14Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] The almost rock star status Obama has received is unusual and a bit disturbing. [/QUOTE] I think a large part of that is Bush’s fault- well, him, and the Republicans in general. We’re coming out of eight years being fairly embarrassed by the President, and now we’re being presented with someone who seems to be somewhat decent. Whether Obama will be a good President in the long run… well, who knows? The point is that at least right now, he looks a hell of a lot better than Bush and McCain. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488/140 "2008-07-09T02:16:31Z")
[QUOTE=Saint Cad] But being smug also means that he would not be willing to listen to his advisors, and we all see how well that strategy has worked (and I’m a Bush apologist). Smart, smug, and arrogance may all come from the same place, but often lead in different directions. [/QUOTE] Then I’d say you’re reading Obama wrong. Everything I’ve read about him indicates he does listen to input from others and weighs it in making a decision. He didn’t run a brilliant campaign single handed. IMO that’s exactly the what a smart leader does. He has the courage and intelligence to weigh the information, make decisions, judge the results and make adjustments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-demonization-of-obama/455488.md?page=8)