# Why the discrepancy between the Dominican Republican & Haiti **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379 "2010-01-18T01:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/1 "2010-01-18T01:54:56Z")
On most important fronts like per capita GDP, Human development index, infant mortality, civil and political freedoms, etc. the Dominican republic is ahead of Haiti. They have more wealth, more freedom, fewer major problems, etc. despite being on the same island and sharing a border. So what is the reason for this? Are the natural resources different, methods of government, commerce or what? I don’t know much about the region, so I really have no idea but assume someone else would have some ideas. Is it that most nations in the Caribbean region are on par with the DR with regard to economics, politics, human rights etc, but Haiti is behind? If so, why? Is Haiti ‘backwards’ while the DR is ‘normal’ for the region when you consider the geography and history of nearby areas? ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/2 "2010-01-18T02:03:50Z")
Remember that Haiti gained indpendence really really early, at the beginning of the nineteenth century. They were the only black nation outside of Africa and moved from pariah to punching bag among the various great powers. I know it is fashionable to discount things that happened a long time ago, but among many indignities they have suffered are: Having to pay an enourmous indemnity to France for their independence. Suffering occupation by the US and the looting of their treasury by more than one foreign power. The installation and maintanence of several dictators, including some especially viscious ones. The thing about being independent is that there is no one to protect your interests unless you are strong enough to do it yourself. The natural powers that one might have hoped would help Haiti have been anything but a help. The US has meddled to ill effect and the France has always been remarkably shitty to its former colonies. In short Haitians’ courage in throwing off French rule came at an enormous price. Being black in a world that didn’t want them extracted a further price for at least the first 150 years of independence. Papa Doc and son took care of the rest. Still it is culturally a fascinating place with wonderful people. I was there in '95 and would love to go back. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/3 "2010-01-18T02:06:29Z")
[Jared Diamond examines the question.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/15/forces-working-against-haiti) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/4 "2010-01-18T02:46:07Z")
In one of the dozen or so current threads on Haiti, [**orcenio** dug up a link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12002152&postcount=15) to a [1986 essay](http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti/misctopic/leftover/whypoor.htm) that seems to remain perinent (given its historical overview). ---
**Author:** ![KLR\_650](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c4cdca/32.png) [@KLR\_650](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KLR_650)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/5 "2010-01-18T15:58:16Z")
Why the discrepancy between Sub-Saharan Africa and the rest of the world? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/6 "2010-01-18T16:09:10Z")
Language maybe? The Dominican Republic was Spanish speaking in a largely Spanish speaking region, whereas the Haitians speak Creole. Also, around the time of the revolution in the DR, a huge emigration went to New York where they setup one of the largest ethnic expat enclaves on the entire planet. There are almost as many Dominicans in New York as in the Dominican Republic. And there is a very strong culture that takes people back and forth from New York to the Dominican Republic so there is a constant infusion of cash back and forth. In the summer, Dominicans come to New York and sell snow cones, and other such treats, living very frugally, and then they go back to the Dominican Republic during the cold months. So there is a cycle of cash going back to the DR regularly, every year. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/7 "2010-01-18T20:17:36Z")
> [@KLR\_650](#): > > Why the discrepancy between Sub-Saharan Africa and the rest of the world? What’s the relevance? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/8 "2010-01-18T20:24:31Z")
Suffering occupation by the US and the looting of their treasury by more than one foreign power. The truth is, the US ccupation was a time when: -most of the modern roads were built -the University of Haiti Medical School was established -the school system was established. Also, the USA Public Health Service also wiped out yellow feaver and malaria. Granted, the Haitians didn’t like being occupied, but it was hardly a disaster! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/9 "2010-01-18T20:44:01Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Suffering occupation by the US and the looting of their treasury by more than one foreign power. > > The truth is, the US ccupation was a time when: > -most of the modern roads were built > -the University of Haiti Medical School was established > -the school system was established. > Also, the USA Public Health Service also wiped out yellow feaver and malaria. > Granted, the Haitians didn’t like being occupied, but it was hardly a disaster! The problem was that the US also did not worry much avout developing a strong civilian government, most of the Haitian leaders during the US occupation were really dictators, setting the pattern after the US left. The us did concentrate also in developing the military of Haiti. And with a weak government set, it was just in a few years that the military took over. On top of that the cold war made President Eisenhower ignore the inconvenient fact that Duvalier was a despot. > **[ROYALTOGEL 🔥 Login Agen Togel Online Hanya Modal Nekat Dan Tekad Bisa Melekat](https://eisenhowermemorial.org/)** > > ROYALTOGEL membuka kesempatan bagi kamu yang ingin mencoba peruntungan dengan modal nekat dan tekad bulat. Raih kemenangan besar dan jadilah pemenang sejati di dunia togel online. > [@](#): > > You have just passed the second anniversary of your inauguration as Constitutional President of Haiti. This fact recalls to me the period preceding your Government, when the lack of a regularly-constituted governmental authority seriously impeded economic progress.6 The United States continues to wish you all success in the efforts of your Government to strengthen constitutional processes and safeguards, which are of such incalculable importance to real economic and social progress.7 > > I assure you, Mr. President, of my sincere interest in your struggle to provide a greater measure of well-being for the Haitian people. In closing, I wish again to express appreciation for your generous offer of military facilities and your assurances that Haiti and the United States continue to share the same views on international questions. Just promise that your country will supply space for a military base or two and you got the democratic seal of approval that was typically given to Latin American nations in those days. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/10 "2010-01-18T22:30:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > On top of that the cold war made President Eisenhower ignore the inconvenient fact that Duvalier was a despot. Likewise, of course, with the DR’s [Trujillo.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Trujillo) Trujillo might be the referent in the famous quote, “He may be a son-of-a-bitch, but he’s **our** son-of-a-bitch!” Although I’ve heard that attributed to several different American presidents and other officials in reference to several different dictators. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/11 "2010-01-18T22:36:43Z")
From [Lawrence Harrison](http://www.arthurhu.com/99/10/barbados.txt), head of the Cultural Change Institute at Tufts University: > [@](#): > > “The culture of slavery, as well as zero-sum traditional African culture, powerfully sustained by a religion (Voodoo) without an ethical code, are palpable to any foreigner who has lived [in Haiti], as I did for two years. Barbados, which I have visited several times, remained a British colony until 1966, by which time it had substantially absorbed British values, attitudes, and institutions. The Barbadians are sometimes referred to as Black Englishmen or Afro-Saxons.” Haiti is far more culturally African than any other Caribbean culture, and in fact its level of development is not low when compared to other African countries. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/12 "2010-01-18T22:40:09Z")
> [@fruitbat](#): > > Having to pay an enourmous indemnity to France for their independence. Why? Haiti won, didn’t it? > [@fruitbat](#): > > Suffering occupation by the US and the looting of their treasury by more than one foreign power. > > The installation and maintanence of several dictators, including some especially viscious ones. > > The thing about being independent is that there is no one to protect your interests unless you are strong enough to do it yourself. The natural powers that one might have hoped would help Haiti have been anything but a help. The US has meddled to ill effect and the France has always been remarkably shitty to its former colonies. > > In short Haitians’ courage in throwing off French rule came at an enormous price. Being black in a world that didn’t want them extracted a further price for at least the first 150 years of independence. Papa Doc and son took care of the rest. > > Still it is culturally a fascinating place with wonderful people. I was there in '95 and would love to go back. How did DR avoid these problems while Haiti suffered them? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/13 "2010-01-18T22:43:00Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > There are almost as many Dominicans in New York as in the Dominican Republic. There certainly are a lot of Dominicans in New York, but I don’t think there can be “almost” ten million. Wikipedia states that there are 657,000 Dominicans in the State of New York, which is certainly a very impressive number all the same. As to the question, this is just one of those things that doesn’t have a single answer; the success or failure of a country is an inherently complex question. Why is Canada richer than Russia? Why is India a democracy and Pakistan isn’t? Why is Thailand a decent place to live and “Myanmar” (Burma) went to hell? There aren’t any single answers to this question; Haiti is just a perfect storm of bad luck. It’s had bad history and bad leaders. It has bad geography, bad resources, and a bad language. It even has bad rivers. It’s a whole lot of bad. And now, against all odds, it’s even worse. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/14 "2010-01-18T22:46:38Z")
nevermind my why question… "THE FRENCH DEBT OF 1838. The Haitian governments were extremely anxious to be recognized by France and the Europeans. But France would not recognize Haiti unless indemnities were paid for lands of former slave owners taken over after the revolution." ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/15 "2010-01-18T23:11:46Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > Why? Haiti won, didn’t it? The problem was that it was then a former colony ruled by former slaves, European nations and the USA still had territories were slavery was the rule. All those nations just saw Haiti as a dangerous example to their slaves. So, no country of consequence recognized the new nation. An embargo was instituted against the new independent nation. To end the embargo from at least France the Haitians had to accept the humiliating indemnity. > [@Bearflag70](#): > > How did DR avoid these problems while Haiti suffered them? One of the early reasons is that the Spaniards had bigger fish to fry (Mexico and south America) so the Dominican republic was not as [del]exploited[/del] developed. As Jared Diamond explains then the Dominican Republic, eventually did develop an export economy and overseas trade. Haiti got a combination of lousy governments, imposed limitations (both external and internal) to foreign immigration and investing and also reckless exploitation of its natural resources. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/16 "2010-01-18T23:15:59Z")
Did Haiti and DR ever consider merger? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/17 "2010-01-18T23:29:00Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > Did Haiti and DR ever consider merger? Unfortunately Haiti and the DR did go to blows in the past and it is only just recently that they are getting along in good terms. However, it will be interesting to see if the recent influx of illegal Haitians to the DR will not seed animosity again. In 1937 Trujillo did massacre the Haitians that lived in the DR. ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/18 "2010-01-18T23:44:47Z")
Haiti actually [occupied the DR](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_invasion_of_the_Dominican_Republic) from 1822 to 1844. It didn’t go over well with the Dominican Republic since Haiti didn’t treat the Dominicans all that well. Another thing that kept the countries from merging is that the DR has a different ethnic make up, with a much larger white minority who weren’t keen on joining a nation of freed slaves who killed or exiled their whites after independence. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/19 "2010-01-18T23:45:07Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > nevermind my why question… > > "THE FRENCH DEBT OF 1838. > > The Haitian governments were extremely anxious to be recognized by France and the Europeans. But France would not recognize Haiti unless indemnities were paid for lands of former slave owners taken over after the revolution." My understanding is that the amount in 1825 was originally 150 million francs, although the amount was reduced to 90 million francs in 1838. I heard on the news the other day that this would represent an inflation-adjusted amount of something like $21 billion and that it wasn’t fully paid off until 1947. So for over 100 years, the country was indebted to France. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379/20 "2010-01-18T23:47:06Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Language maybe? The Dominican Republic was Spanish speaking in a largely Spanish speaking region, whereas the Haitians speak Creole. > > Also, around the time of the revolution in the DR, a huge emigration went to New York where they setup one of the largest ethnic expat enclaves on the entire planet. There are almost as many Dominicans in New York as in the Dominican Republic. And there is a very strong culture that takes people back and forth from New York to the Dominican Republic so there is a constant infusion of cash back and forth. In the summer, Dominicans come to New York and sell snow cones, and other such treats, living very frugally, and then they go back to the Dominican Republic during the cold months. So there is a cycle of cash going back to the DR regularly, every year. Whereas Haitians were going to New York as much as possible at least as far back as the 1970’s & Baby Doc. I’m not sure what the actual difference is here. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-discrepancy-between-the-dominican-republican-haiti/525379.md?page=2)