# Why the fuss about Michael Vick? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262 "2009-05-22T02:04:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/41 "2009-05-23T00:06:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Drinking is premeditated, driving is premeditated, driving while drunk is premeditated. You’re right that Vick took actions over a long period and that’s different from one incident. If you want to tell me he’s a worse person, good luck with that. Drinking is premeditated? Then killing someone in a car is premeditated. Not true. Absurd. Nobody says I will drink and kill someone tonight. Vick trained ,planned and participated in dog killing for sport. They are not even close to the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/42 "2009-05-23T00:07:08Z")
Aren’t there ENOUGH hulking replacement football players out there who haven’t (at least as far as we know) tortured, maimed, and killed animals? If one could be located, and trained to perform in a satisfactory manner, do you think you could be happy with that bright shining new star? Or will no one else do for you, on a Sunday afternoon, than watch poor Michael Vick who has " paid a debt to society",? Despicable. He deserves to live in a cardboard box and die in a fire. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/43 "2009-05-23T00:17:38Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Not true. Absurd. Nobody says I will drink and kill someone tonight. They show a lack of consideration for human life. Vick showed a lack of consideration for canine life. The former is worse. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/44 "2009-05-23T00:20:53Z")
Vick didn’t just show a lack of consideration for canine life, he showed a downright contempt for it. I don’t recall too many Let’s Bet on the Drunk Drivers Killing Pedestrians rings being broken up. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/45 "2009-05-23T00:25:06Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Vick didn’t just show a lack of consideration for canine life, he showed a downright contempt for it. So is contempt for canine life worse than disregard for human life? Both are repugnant but I think it’s a tough argument. > [@](#): > > I don’t recall too many Let’s Bet on the Drunk Drivers Killing Pedestrians rings being broken up. They don’t exist. Is the problem here that Vick was _gambling_? I thought people were upset he was involved in the dogfighting ring, not that he made some money off the deal. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/46 "2009-05-23T00:27:54Z")
Come on, Marley. Drunk driving is a completely thoughtless, idiotic, retarded, stupid, ill-conceived thing to do, but you know as well as I do that pretty much no one heads out for a night of drunk driving and crashing into people. But dog-fighting is a fucking night out in which one is guaranteed to see himself some dead dog. Not the same thing at all. The problem isn’t that Vick was gambling, the problem is that Vick was setting up situations where other people could gamble on dogs killing each other. You know this. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/47 "2009-05-23T00:29:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > They show a lack of consideration for human life. Vick showed a lack of consideration for canine life. The former is worse. Driving drunk, as recklessly despicable as it is, does not automatically guarantee the death of a human being. Plenty of people drive drunk and don’t kill someone (thank god). Dogfighting always ends in the long, slow, torturous death of at least one dog, usually more. Always. That’s more than just “lack of consideration”–that’s inhuman bloodlust. ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/48 "2009-05-23T01:13:02Z")
didn’t mean to post and run… appreciate the replies… interestingly, Goodell wishes to [consider Vick’s remorse](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4017085) in his decision… I know the previous examples I cited involved crimes (against humans) that did not involve felony convictions (but some were misdemeanors)… I wonder if these others needed to show remorse, and what is the reliability and validity of a “remorse-o-meter”… It is likely that Vick will not play again in the NFL (and I am not a fan of his), and precedent is being set by this case. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/49 "2009-05-23T02:33:05Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Which is why, even if Vick is reinstated, he will never play a single down in the NFL ever again. The publicity and subsequent media blitz and boycotts would drown any team that even sniffs in Vick’s general direction. > > He is done, regardless of what the NFL decides. I strongly disagree. If the League does not lifetime ban him it is guaranteed that somewhere, some owner desperate for a star QB is going to be willing to take a chance on Vick. If he wins he will be deemed rehabilitated. American life is full of second acts. ---
**Author:** ![hroark2112](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6a8cbe/32.png) [@hroark2112](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hroark2112)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/50 "2009-05-23T02:46:05Z")
I would be willing to wager that there are more people committing crimes in Congress than in the NFL. Ted Kennedy killed a girl and is STILL elected every time. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/51 "2009-05-23T02:46:38Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I strongly disagree. If the League does not lifetime ban him it is guaranteed that somewhere, some owner desperate for a star QB is going to be willing to take a chance on Vick. If he wins he will be deemed rehabilitated. American life is full of second acts. Except, he’s not a “star QB”. His stats are decidedly average and he hasn’t taken a snap in two years. Michael Vick would not be the “missing piece” on any team that signed him. That’s why controversial players like Terrell Owens and Randy Moss get 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances. Vick is an average player at a position that is overloaded with average players. Teams would be much better served signing a player not guaranteed to cause a fan riot. > **[NFL Player Stat Leaders, 2006 Postseason - ESPN](https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats?season=2006)** > > The 2006 NFL Postseason Player stat leaders on ESPN. Includes stat leaders in every category from passing and rushing to tackles and interceptions. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/52 "2009-05-23T02:57:04Z")
> [@phungi](#): > > didn’t mean to post and run… appreciate the replies… interestingly, Goodell wishes to [consider Vick’s remorse](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4017085) in his decision… I know the previous examples I cited involved crimes (against humans) that did not involve felony convictions (but some were misdemeanors)… > > I wonder if these others needed to show remorse, and what is the reliability and validity of a “remorse-o-meter”… > > It is likely that Vick will not play again in the NFL (and I am not a fan of his), and precedent is being set by this case. Remorse can be faked. It often is. Put on a sad face, say a few words, and that’s all it is. Any two year old can say “I’m sorry”. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/53 "2009-05-23T03:16:12Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Remorse can be faked. It often is. Put on a sad face, say a few words, and that’s all it is. Any two year old can say “I’m sorry”. Which Vick didn’t do until the federal government threatened him with 50 years in federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison. And even then, his apology basically amounted to “Dogfighting is just something that happens in the ghetto!” Which led to a bunch of black leaders screaming for Vick’s head on a platter. He will never play again. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/54 "2009-05-23T05:58:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The dog killing was premeditated. Killing someone in an accident is not. He set up a system to train dogs to fight to the death and killed the ones that were not good enough. This was not a horrible incident or a mistake. It was planned, premeditated and cruel. It says something about an aberrant personality to be engaged in and enjoying such cruelty. Vick loved watching dogs tear each other apart and had no trouble killing then himself. Does prison fix that? Fully agreed. Premeditated. It’s one moment of really poor misjudgment for the others that the OP named, but Vick didn’t attend ONE dogfight and bet on it with college buddies, this was a side business involving cruelty to animals. The mental pros have to find out why the hell he likes doing this over and over again. Something’s wrong with him. ---
**Author:** ![dudemanjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/49beb7/32.png) [@dudemanjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dudemanjack)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/55 "2009-05-23T15:24:53Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I strongly disagree. If the League does not lifetime ban him it is guaranteed that somewhere, some owner desperate for a star QB is going to be willing to take a chance on Vick. If he wins he will be deemed rehabilitated. American life is full of second acts. I agree with this. You’d be amazed how quickly people forget about any transgression Vick ever did if he goes out and wins games. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/56 "2009-05-23T16:59:22Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Come on, Marley. Drunk driving is a completely thoughtless, idiotic, retarded, stupid, ill-conceived thing to do, but you know as well as I do that pretty much no one heads out for a night of drunk driving and crashing into people. But dog-fighting is a fucking night out in which one is guaranteed to see himself some dead dog. Not the same thing at all. > > The problem isn’t that Vick was gambling, the problem is that Vick was setting up situations where other people could gamble on dogs killing each other. You know this. But it is still a dog. He got what he deserved. But it is still just a dog. And I like dogs. More than some people. But you can not compare the two. I have had to shoot vicious dogs at work. I have had to work drunk driving scenes with dead kids. It’s not even close. > [@astro](#): > > I strongly disagree. If the League does not lifetime ban him it is guaranteed that somewhere, some owner desperate for a star QB is going to be willing to take a chance on Vick. If he wins he will be deemed rehabilitated. American life is full of second acts. Probably. A team with a young QB. Vick on the bench with a minimum contract, ironclad morality clause. There are never enough QBs. Someone will pick him up but he won’t be a starter right away. And maybe he actually did change. He has been in prison. He lost just about everything he had. Maybe he changed. It is not impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/57 "2009-05-23T18:57:55Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Drunk driving is a completely thoughtless, idiotic, retarded, stupid, ill-conceived thing to do, but you know as well as I do that pretty much no one heads out for a night of drunk driving and crashing into people. But dog-fighting is a fucking night out in which one is guaranteed to see himself some dead dog. Not the same thing at all. The point is this: Little got drunk and didn’t care enough to prevent an action that ended up killing somebody else. Vick didn’t care about the suffering of dogs. Detestable for certain, but also easier to get outraged at. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/58 "2009-05-23T19:06:38Z")
> [@dudemanjack](#): > > I agree with this. You’d be amazed how quickly people forget about any transgression Vick ever did if he goes out and wins games. and then allow him to re-enter a league that promotes the physical brutalization between 2 teams of 11 soley for the purpose of spectator entertainment? oh the humanity… i’m continually surprised at the moral high horses that some people speak from on this issue. Somehow raising dogs to fight each other is a despicable and unforgivable act that borders on the criminally insane. I’m pretty sure pitting animals against animals, even humans against humans, and every combination in between has been a part of human civilization for thousands of years. From grasshoppers to gladiators, you find some sort of forced combat on every single continent. i’m not condoning dog-fighting or even defending it. I think the sport is cruel and revolting. However, the magnitude of the sin is being blown entirely out of proportion based on personal bias. The entire body of law that constitutes animal cruelty is subjective and hypocritical. There is no rhyme nor reason to which animals get which rights other than “this is what i feel is right.” Why would a dog be entitled to saving but gophers be exterminated? Dogs have been bred to serve for our own selfish purposes for tens of thousands of years. To hunt, to race, to fight, to guard, to fit in handbags, etc. Now Vick is being demonized because of it? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/59 "2009-05-23T19:19:40Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Not true. It is just killing dogs for sport is reprehensible. If he had cages full of youths fighting and killed off the ones that didn’t fight well, he would have gotten in far more serious trouble. He would have been more hated. Precisely. People compare Vick to athletes who hit their wives and say, why pick on Vick? But Vick wouldn’t have been this hated if he’d slapped a dog, and he would have gotten into vastly MORE trouble if he’d had 50 human women chained to car axles in the woods and made them fight to the death. The severity and the industrial scale of the crime is most of the issue, not the identity of the victims. An additional issue is that when humans are involved, there’s usually an element of uncertainty – it can become a “he said, she said” thing as to whether a woman was slapped, and people may feel uncomfortable taking a side. That element is not present in Vick’s crime. No pit bull complained to authorities; we know the dogs aren’t interested in his money, we know they did not ask to be chained to car axles. There’s clarity that all the wrong comes from one side. Another reason you see so much Vick hate is because, despite vapid claims that “he’s paid his debt to society,” he hasn’t, not really. He paid a minimal, discount price, set inappropriately low by weak laws and a compliant, money-worshipping system. Most people who have dogs understand Vick paid far too low a price and essentially got away with it. That’s why the persistent anger. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262/60 "2009-05-23T19:22:14Z")
I take it the ones arguing organised dog-fighting events are no different as a spectator event than boxing, would have no qualms if gladiatorial fights to the death were brought back as entertainment? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-fuss-about-michael-vick/497262.md?page=4)