# Why the GOP hates public schools? Creationism and mandatory prayer. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 27, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952 "2012-09-27T01:29:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/41 "2012-09-29T04:56:29Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > . . . Broadly speaking, religious schools produce higher test scores than public schools. . . . Sure; being private, they can simply expel any student who doesn’t do well. There is a degree of circularity in this claim. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/42 "2012-09-29T06:26:09Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > It sells food, clothing, cars, and a million other things effectively. No, it doesn’t. Not for a rational definition of “effectively”. In the US, 15% of the population require food stamps. Globally, several million people starve to death each year. The government intercedes in this beneficence of the free market and introduces inefficiency by mandating that people have a right to eat, regardless of whether they are employed or not\*. According to the Austrian school, this depresses standard of living in some other realm because productivity is lower, so we are worse off as a result. No comment on that conclusion. Not to mention that food is a particularly apt analogy, since the food consumed in the US and delivered by the “free market” is of a particularly dire quality and contributes to the staggering obesity problem there. Some part of that is due to corn subsidies, which massively benefit largescale producers of junk like cheetos and high-fructose corn syrup in beverages. - From the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to which the US is a signatory (as per Article 2, Section 2, Clause 2 of the Constitution): > [@UDHR](#): > > Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. > Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/43 "2012-09-29T07:50:12Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I think you had better. Recall what you said: “Vouchers are not about improving education. They’re about paying religious institutions with taxpayers’ money to teach kids that humans and dinosaurs coexisted a few thousand years ago.” I’m sure that you’re smart enough to understand the that finding a tiny number of examples of schools that receive vouchers and do something you don’t approve is not proof of what you wrote in post #6. What gives you the idea that it’s a tiny number? How many examples do I need to find? Do you think it’s acceptable for public funds to be used to teach children that [“God used the Trail of Tears to bring many Indians to Christ.”](http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2012/07/photos-evangelical-curricula-louisiana-tax-dollars#13488171077441&action=collapse_widget&id=703747)? > [@](#): > > Taken as a whole, the cites that you provided seem to make a strong case for vouchers. They document how lousy the public schools are. That the public schools are lousy does not in itself make any kind of case for vouchers. You’re bifurcating. > [@](#): > > For all your complaining about the possibility of a few Louisiana kids getting a bad education in a private, you seem remarkably unconcerned about the fact that huge numbers of Louisiana kids are getting bad educations or no education at all in public schools. Seriously? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > From the first link you posted, the portion you quoted is immediately followed by this: “The state tightened up on accountability, requiring participating schools to earn pre-accreditation, among other changes.” By leaving that out, you gave a misleading representation of what the article is saying. This forum has rules about not quoting too much of linked articles. That’s why they’re links, so that people can click and read the whole thing. I don’t think it was misleading to leave that out. The state did make some changes, but those changes are woefully inadequate. > [@](#): > > Broadly speaking, religious schools produce higher test scores than public schools. The Education Department’s annual Digest of Education Statistics confirms this. It also shows that the gap in test scores between private and public schools is larger for blacks and Hispanics than for whites. Thus, those who oppose vouchers are inflicting even greater harm on black and Hispanic children than on the student body in general. I’m unclear on what specific test scores you’re referring to, but generally speaking, these standardized tests only test for reading and math. My point of contention is not reading and math, it is mainly science and history. > [@](#): > > I will hereby ask you for the third time whether you can provide any actual research to support the idea that voucher programs are bad for students. I believe that Bible-based pseudoscience curricula are bad for students. I don’t have any research to support that, it’s just my own personal opinion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/44 "2012-09-29T15:37:39Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Not for a rational definition of “effectively”. In the US, 15% of the population require food stamps. Do you not see how wrong that is, and how it actually supports the argument you are arguing against? Food stamps = vouchers. There is plenty of food, but some people need assistance in buying it. Food stamps are an excellent way of targeting a basic human need and minimizing the chances of abuse. Vouchers would work the same way. And, btw, I think you’ll have a hard time finding places where food takes up less of the average family’s budget than in the US. The market provides food extremely effectively in the US. One might make the argument that Americans, as consumers, make lots of poor choices when it comes to buying food, and maybe they’d make similarly poor choices in picking the schools their children go to. However, that can certainly be addressed by requiring accreditation for schools before they are eligible to receive vouchers. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/45 "2012-09-29T18:06:47Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If you read the report… :smack: When I went to that link, it looked very similar to another one I saw a while back that required you to actually purchase a whole article, which I didn’t want to do. For some reason I thought this one did too. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/46 "2012-09-29T19:35:48Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Which of the schools with better education systems spends less of a percentage of its GDP on education? Which has a lower top marginal tax rate than the US? Aside from trying to provider an _answer_ when you respond to a question someone asks, how about whatever the hell you type have some relevance to the question. Just a though… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/47 "2012-09-29T19:43:20Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Wow. When did they start doing so badly? Have their profits been dwindling? > > I mean, it was just 2006 when they gave their outgoing boss a 400 million dollar bonus after “\*\*Exxon made the biggest profit of any company ever, $36 billion” > \*\* > [Oil: Exxon Chairman's $400 Million Parachute - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/PainAtThePump/story?id=1841989#.UGYaQVHRrvc) > > And they seemed to be doing OK in 2010: > [http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/29/news/companies/Exxon/index.htm](http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/29/news/companies/Exxon/index.htm) > And in 2011: > [Exxon attributes profit surge to high oil prices - Oct. 27, 2011](http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/27/news/companies/exxon_mobil/index.htm) > bolding mine As has been pointed out in multiple threads over multiple years, it is meaningless to look at the profits in dollars. That only thing that matters is how much the profit is in terms of percent. Usually the big oil companies make less than 8%, which is no great shakes as successful companies go. Many companies do way better. And keep in mind that the big oil stocks are held in just about every IRA, 401k, 403b, and other retirement fund. CALpers might own more stock than anyone (just a guess), and that means that people who work for the State of California (as well as employees of other states and municipalities) would like the oil companies to do better, so they’ll have more money at retirement. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/48 "2012-09-30T20:27:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you not see how wrong that is, and how it actually supports the argument you are arguing against? Again, this depends on seeing publicly subsidised vouchers as the free market solution, which is not standard usage. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/49 "2012-10-01T19:55:18Z")
> [@](#): > > How many examples do I need to find? I’d expect someone who’s a veteran of the SDMB and an advocate of science to be aware that no amount of anecdotal evidence proves a blanket statement. I’ve linked–twice–to a real research summary containing the results of dozens of actual studies, which testify almost unanimously that vouchers improve education. You’ve attacked the organization that produced the summary, but have not given us any reason not to trust the research itself. Simultaneously you cling to anecdotal evidence, the one thing that science fans usually despite most. Why? > [@](#): > > I’m unclear on what specific test scores you’re referring to, but generally speaking, these standardized tests only test for reading and math. My point of contention is not reading and math, it is mainly science and history. Very well, let’s see how students in public and private school compare on science scores. Students in private school do better, according to page 9 of [this government report](http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/main2011/2012465.pdf). Likewise for [history](http://nationsreportcard.gov/ushistory_2010/g8_nat.asp?subtab_id=Tab_4&tab_id=tab1#chart). Apparently public schools produce student who know less about science and history than those schools which teach kids that dinosaurs and people coexisted. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/50 "2012-10-01T23:53:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > As has been pointed out in multiple threads over multiple years, it is meaningless to look at the profits in dollars. That only thing that matters is how much the profit is in terms of percent. Usually the big oil companies make less than 8%, which is no great shakes as successful companies go. Many companies do way better. No great shakes. Yeah, right. They only made 8%. Barely enough to scrape by. I mean, really, why even bother for a _measly 8%??_ Why, it would better for them if they only made 100 million profit if they could get the percentage up to 70% Except that the 8% is bringing in money hand over fist, _more than any business in history_, 36 BILLION FREAKING DOLLARS in 2006 and it has gone up considerably since then, and that’s just for Exxon. Enough to give an outgoing CEO nearly a half-billion dollars \*as a bonus. \* Saying this is no great shakes is absolutely ridiculous. 36 billion dollars profit, in dollars, is staggering. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/51 "2012-10-02T19:18:50Z")
To answer the O.P. , I have no problem with people praying. If there actually is someone listening then its a bonus, if there isn’t a great flying spaghetti monster, then the person praying might feel a little better anyway, and the only loss is a few moments and some expelled breath. But teaching Creationism is akin to teaching kids that Fairy Tales are real. It is in fact child abuse. It shouldn’t ever happen. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/52 "2012-10-02T20:24:34Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Ehhh, I vote Republican but am not religious in the least. Although conservatives are certainly mostly pro-religion just as they’re pro-life I don’t think that’s their main issue with public education. Their main issue is that they don’t like anything (aside from the military) to be run by the government. Same reason they’re not crazy about things like public transportation or the Postal Service. They prefer private enterprise that’s behooved to the more natural laws of supply & demand rather than arbitray political ones. They also recognize (rightly I think) that govt-run agencies are always wasteful & inefficient and public schools are certainly no exception. > > Obviously schools are closer to agencies like police & fire depts, things that are required for the public good and so are payed for by taxation. But anyone who owns a home will tell you that school taxes can be ridiculously high (more than both income & property tax) and are almost never linked to whether or not you have school-age children. Plus because public school officials & teachers etc. are almost always liberals they have absolutely no qualms about fleecing the public (and the states) for bigger budgets. They have an elitist view that they’re the ‘gatekeepers of future generations’ and are often ignorant and dismissive towards financial realities. > > Creationism and prayer are really minor issues. But they’re emotional and provocative so they get all the press! Thanks for your post! Every once in awhile and even though I am doing very well for the past 24 years in my career I get nostaligic for my teaching days. It is good to be reaquainted with the popular opinion that teachers should be low paid scum and how dare they want to be paid even somewhat close to a real professional. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/53 "2012-10-02T23:45:33Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Ehhh, I vote Republican but am not religious in the least. Although conservatives are certainly mostly pro-religion just as they’re pro-life I don’t think that’s their main issue with public education. Their main issue is that they don’t like anything (aside from the military) to be run by the government. Same reason they’re not crazy about things like public transportation or the Postal Service. They prefer private enterprise that’s behooved to the more natural laws of supply & demand rather than arbitray political ones. They also recognize (rightly I think) that govt-run agencies are always wasteful & inefficient and public schools are certainly no exception. Wait, I thought conservatives LIKED local government. Now they don’t like federal OR local governments? That sounds suspiciously close to anarchy. Same for most public transportations systems. BTW, isn’t the post office specifically authorized by the constitution? Maybe they should try for an even broader interpretation of the constitution to not only write out the commerce and general welfare clauses but also most of the enumerated powers as well. > [@](#): > > Obviously schools are closer to agencies like police & fire depts, things that are required for the public good and so are payed for by taxation. But anyone who owns a home will tell you that school taxes can be ridiculously high (more than both income & property tax) and are almost never linked to whether or not you have school-age children. Plus because public school officials & teachers etc. are almost always liberals they have absolutely no qualms about fleecing the public (and the states) for bigger budgets. They have an elitist view that they’re the ‘gatekeepers of future generations’ and are often ignorant and dismissive towards financial realities. Public education (like health care) are one of those things that should not be distributed SOLELY based on ability to pay. > [@](#): > > Creationism and prayer are really minor issues. But they’re emotional and provocative so they get all the press! You really don’t understand who you have gotten into bed with when the Republican party started courting the evangelical vote, do you? > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Yes, I agree. It is substantially about keeping God in education. Its also about busting unions. Its also about getting government to pay for home schooling and subsidizing private school tuition. Its also about taxes. > [@gatorslap](#): > > I wouldn’t say they’re failing. They’re failing to meet the arbitrary standards imposed by No Child Left Behind… which is a bullshit law to begin with. So describe a method for evaluating teacher performance without testing standards. I can’t get on board with the notion that we can’t objectively judge a teacher over a period of years. > [@](#): > > Vouchers are not about improving education. They’re about paying religious institutions with taxpayers’ money to teach kids that humans and dinosaurs coexisted a few thousand years ago. Just look at Louisiana, it’s a mess. I have no problem wit vouchers as long as: 1. the participating private school will accept the voucher as FULL payment of tuition and fees, 2. the participating institution takes all comers or selects based on a lottery. 3. the participating institution meets minimum federal guidelines for curriculum and facilities, 4. the participating facility isn’t a front for homeschoolers. > [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > Thanks for your post! Every once in awhile and even though I am doing very well for the past 24 years in my career I get nostaligic for my teaching days. > > It is good to be reaquainted with the popular opinion that teachers should be low paid scum and how dare they want to be paid even somewhat close to a real professional. Low pay is an unavoidable consequence of being in a profession that offers so much emotional gratification. Its like being a zoo veterinarian, the pay sucks but for a lot of people, it offers a lot more than just money. It also doesn’t hurt that the barriers to entry are relatively low. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/54 "2012-10-03T15:40:54Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > But teaching Creationism is akin to teaching kids that Fairy Tales are real. > > It is in fact child abuse. In fact it is not child abuse. There is [a definition](http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/statutes/define.pdf) of the term “child abuse” and teaching Creationism is not part of it. Every since Richard Dawkins started saying this, certain people have taken to parroting it without stopping to consider how ridiculous it is. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/55 "2012-10-03T15:49:05Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In fact it is not child abuse. There is [a definition](http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/statutes/define.pdf) of the term “child abuse” and teaching Creationism is not part of it. Every since Richard Dawkins started saying this, certain people have taken to parroting it without stopping to consider how ridiculous it is. I haven’t seen this claim made by Richard Dawkins. Richard Dawkins in fact claimed _labelling_ a child as a particular religion was child abuse and defended that claim by pointing out how some minors (particularly male teenagers) viewed their abuse as a positive experience. Of course, it’d be utterly impractical to expect adults not to label their children. Even moderately religious individuals will have the pressure of their community to perform certain rites like baptism or circumcision. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/56 "2012-10-03T19:01:38Z")
Damned straight that the private and voucher movement is about busting teacher’s unions. It SHOULD be. They are the most destructive thing about the public education system. The fact that it’s almost impossible to fire a bad teacher is a tragedy for every student who has to suffer under them. The fact that the best people can’t be attracted to education because there is no merit pay is another big strike against the unions. In addition, teachers overall are overpaid and have better benefits than they should, because of the power of the union. Of course there are areas where teachers are underpaid, but in general they make far above the average of other white collar professionals of similar education in the region in which they work, when you correct for hours worked. My kid just went to a new school this year. He has never received less than 90% in math, and has always been a straight-A student. His first interim math mark in the new school came in at 65%. I asked him why, and he doesn’t know - the math teacher only gives back the grades for tests, but doesn’t let the students or parents see them. The teacher doesn’t grade homework, but just checks to see if the kids did it. In addition, this teacher is hostile to students and will respond to an honest question with, “Are you STUPID? You had to ask THAT?” or variations thereof. This is an IB math class, by the way, so none of the kids are ‘stupid’, and they’re generally well behaved and kids that historically have gotten good marks. As a result, the students don’t know if what they are doing is right or wrong, and they are afraid to ask. My kid has a lot of social anxiety, and after getting smacked down for asking a question now refuses to ask questions at all, lest he be humiliated in front of the class. The parents don’t see the student’s tests and assignments, so they have no way of helping their kids. “Rate My Teacher” has a historical score for this teacher of about 2 out of 5, with many comments about her hostility and unwillingness to help. She’s about 60 years old, so she has tenure and cannot be removed from her position. Union rules, don’t you know. She’s clearly disengaged from the children and is either burned out or lazy and just putting in time until retirement. I’m now having to fight with school administration to force this teacher to start sending test material home with my kid, so at least I can do the teacher’s damned job for her. Many parents with kids in the public school system have stories like this, and remember teachers like that from their own time in public schools. If the school system was free to fire the bottom 10% of teachers, they could distribute their salaries to the other 90% as merit bonuses, increase the class size of the others by 10%, and the system would be improved dramatically. But the union won’t allow it. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/57 "2012-10-04T00:28:30Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If the school system was free to fire the bottom 10% of teachers, they could distribute their salaries to the other 90% as merit bonuses, increase the class size of the others by 10%, and the system would be improved dramatically. But the union won’t allow it. And if we elected politicians who could be arsed to actually negotiate a better contract then maybe the union wouldn’t have the power to disallow this. If in fact they do. I suspect that most of these complaints about the union power really refer to the contract clauses that prevent a teacher from being fired arbitrarily, and the administration hasn’t followed the proper process for handling the poor performing teacher, so can’t back up their case in court if the teacher/union sues for wrongful dismissal. As a former government manager of “unfireable” public servants, I am well aware that it is actually not that hard to get rid of a bad one. You just need to follow the designated process and do the paperwork. Most managers can’t be bothered. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/58 "2012-10-04T11:39:09Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The fact that the best people can’t be attracted to education because there is no merit pay is another big strike against the unions. I was unaware that private education was abolished in the US or Canada. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/59 "2012-10-04T14:26:12Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Damned straight that the private and voucher movement is about busting teacher’s unions. It SHOULD be. They are the most destructive thing about the public education system. The fact that it’s almost impossible to fire a bad teacher is a tragedy for every student who has to suffer under them. The fact that the best people can’t be attracted to education because there is no merit pay is another big strike against the unions. > > In addition, teachers overall are overpaid and have better benefits than they should, because of the power of the union. Of course there are areas where teachers are underpaid, but in general they make far above the average of other white collar professionals of similar education in the region in which they work, when you correct for hours worked. > > My kid just went to a new school this year. He has never received less than 90% in math, and has always been a straight-A student. His first interim math mark in the new school came in at 65%. I asked him why, and he doesn’t know - the math teacher only gives back the grades for tests, but doesn’t let the students or parents see them. The teacher doesn’t grade homework, but just checks to see if the kids did it. > > In addition, this teacher is hostile to students and will respond to an honest question with, “Are you STUPID? You had to ask THAT?” or variations thereof. This is an IB math class, by the way, so none of the kids are ‘stupid’, and they’re generally well behaved and kids that historically have gotten good marks. > > As a result, the students don’t know if what they are doing is right or wrong, and they are afraid to ask. My kid has a lot of social anxiety, and after getting smacked down for asking a question now refuses to ask questions at all, lest he be humiliated in front of the class. The parents don’t see the student’s tests and assignments, so they have no way of helping their kids. > > “Rate My Teacher” has a historical score for this teacher of about 2 out of 5, with many comments about her hostility and unwillingness to help. She’s about 60 years old, so she has tenure and cannot be removed from her position. Union rules, don’t you know. She’s clearly disengaged from the children and is either burned out or lazy and just putting in time until retirement. > > I’m now having to fight with school administration to force this teacher to start sending test material home with my kid, so at least I can do the teacher’s damned job for her. > > Many parents with kids in the public school system have stories like this, and remember teachers like that from their own time in public schools. > > If the school system was free to fire the bottom 10% of teachers, they could distribute their salaries to the other 90% as merit bonuses, increase the class size of the others by 10%, and the system would be improved dramatically. But the union won’t allow it. Why don’t you send your child to a private school then? ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952/60 "2012-10-04T17:28:38Z")
Sam Stone. I understand your frustration. I really do. However, you make it clear teachers are overpaid…yet complain about the quality of the teachers. What I find hard to understand is that if this were ANY OTHER FIELD, people would see how…silly…they are being. Take doctors. What if we paid doctors so little and gave them so little respect and very little advancement opportunities that the majority of them came from the lower 25% of the college class? If you visited a doctor would you go…what a crappy doctor. He is overpaid! Of course not. You would see that doctors are an important profession and that then need to be paid MORE, not less. They need to be given more respect, not less. etc etc etc. This is what has happened to education. What happens is that you recruit substandard people into the profession (lower quarter of the college class)…throw them into an environment where pay is low and advancement opportunities essentially nil both in terms of development and increasing salary. Give them little respect and many of them will just…well…give up. Why try your hardest when you are paid shit, will continue to be paid shit and people don’t respect you? OBVIOUSLY society doesn’t give a shit about educating children so why should I? Your child is a victim of this and I am sorry. However, I do not put all blame on the teacher. Maybe…just maybe…if _I_ hadn’t been driven from the profession because of low pay, little advancement opportunities and little respect from society then…maybe…just maybe _I_ would be your child’s math teacher. I can humbly say that I was a pretty damn good math teacher…but there was no chance of me being your child’s math teacher because I was UNDER paid and under respected. Cut the pay of the profession more and you expect to get and keep people like me in it? You can’t even attract quality people to the field now! Dream on. So, while I feel for your kid, you are getting the math teacher you deserve. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-gop-hates-public-schools-creationism-and-mandatory-prayer/635952.md?page=4)