# Why the hate against replacement NFL referees? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 24, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672 "2012-09-24T13:30:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/21 "2012-09-25T04:04:23Z")
Clearly the end of the Packers game should convince everyone that the real refs need to come back. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/22 "2012-09-25T04:16:21Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Clearly the end of the Packers game should convince everyone that the real refs need to come back. QFT. Nothing more to add, without getting far more worked up over this than I should. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/23 "2012-09-25T04:28:18Z")
Tonight’s game pretty much answers the OP’s question. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/24 "2012-09-25T04:39:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Tonight’s game pretty much answers the OP’s question. And it’s ironic that it’s a Seahawks fan. I wanted them to win, but not like that. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/25 "2012-09-25T04:45:23Z")
Fuck the people in charge for turning the NFL into Calvinball. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/26 "2012-09-25T04:47:58Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > QFT. Nothing more to add, without getting far more worked up over this than I should. I’ll add something. https://www.youtube.com/embed/ddEIlvH27u0?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque Scroll to 1:55 to see two referees standing 3 feet apart from each other, one signalling “interception” while the other simultaneously signals “touchdown.” The whole video is worth a watch, but that particular moment is priceless. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/27 "2012-09-25T04:57:08Z")
As I posted in the Week 3 thread, there were bad calls in the drive where the Packers took the lead (including 2 on third downs that extended the drive) so one could argue that the Seahawks shouldn’t have been behind at the end. And other than that there were plenty of bad calls. Enough to say that I don’t know who should have won the game. Looks like this week’s MNF answered my question. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/28 "2012-09-25T04:59:03Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I’ll add something. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddEIlvH27u0](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddEIlvH27u0) > > Scroll to 1:55 to see two referees standing 3 feet apart from each other, one signalling “interception” while the other simultaneously signals “touchdown.” The whole video is worth a watch, but that particular moment is priceless. [That moment in a single still frame.](https://twitter.com/Rachel__Nichols/status/250446414621052928/photo/1) ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/29 "2012-09-25T05:19:20Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > The refs are likely to get exactly what they deserve. Apparently, they are not easily replaceable, and they are worth quite a bit more than their compensation indicated. > > Also, do you actually believe the NFL refs are only slightly better than the replacement refs? If so, then that’s where the point of contention is. We need to resolve that point long before we can expect to have any progress deciding whether the refs are underpaid. I do. You forget in your nostalgia the truly awful calls the other guys missed. The replacements suffer largely from inexperience, something that can only be accumulated by actually refereeing games. Dare you revisit the myriad number of threads from years past where the officials are hammered just as hard? What Denver fan can forget when Hochuli took a game away, the best ref blowing a crucial call when it mattered most? How about Super Bowl XL? As a Steelers fan, that’s a game you guys will never let me forget for all of its alleged officiating errors. Biggest game in the world and they blew it, right? Not a week goes by when the regular refs aren’t burned in effigy. And those are guys that you want back because of their prowess? I am far more ambivalent than you are. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/30 "2012-09-25T05:20:27Z")
I have long felt that officiating is like sleet, wind or crowd noise: one more thing the players have to play through. The whole review thing is a mistake, zebra errors should just be part of the game, assuming personal bias can be factored out. (And superbowl forty was not just two bad calls, that crew, which was supposed to be the best of the best, made numerous mistakes. To a Seahawk fan, that game looked a lot like the fix was in.) ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/31 "2012-09-25T08:49:28Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Actually, you could argue the other side quite easily, that the refs are ruining the game with their greed. Let’s think about this for a minute: to settle this thing under the terms that the refs want, it would cost the NFL around $3 million, plus later ancillary fees and costs such as pensions. Are they hurting for that kind of money? Certainly not. But what does the NFL want? > > 1. They want a certain number, and eventually all, of the referees to be full-time refs. The refs fight this because they make serious loot in their real jobs and then make serious loot for their part-time referee jobs. Is it unreasonable to surmise that someone doing a job full-time will do better at it than someone who does it part-time? > > 2. The NFL wants to take the pension plan and switch it to a 401(K), thus deferring their responsibility for it onto the refs themselves. Big deal. This has long been the trend among businesses, it eliminates legacy costs. Granted, the refs don’t cost that much, but that’s not the point. > > 3. The refs want a pay raise. Who doesn’t want a pay raise? I guess $4000-8000 isn’t sufficient compensation for 3 hours of work and 30 hours of prep time. Their time is more valuable than that, what with being lawyers and lobbyists and such. To which I say, stay at those jobs or become full-time officials. Choose, just like every other sport’s full-time official corps. > > So, who is really doing the deed here? The NFL, by locking the officials out, certainly has some culpability, but the officials want their cake and they want to eat it, too, and are doing far more (in my opinion) to prolong this. They’re hoping, with much justification, that the NFL will fold up and give in after the replacement refs make some bad calls. People are feeding into this, and so the refs are likely to get a hell of a lot more than they should and the NFL will be stuck with refs that are on aggregate only slightly better than the ones they have now, and part-time to boot. > > Greed? That is hardly the sole province of the NFL or Roger Goodell, and in fact lies chiefly with the zebras in this case. I’ve got an idea; Take Albert Haynesworth’s contract and divide the cost up between all 32 teams. Give that money to the refs every year. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/32 "2012-09-25T11:03:46Z")
Could Obama pull a Reagan (air traffic controllers)? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/33 "2012-09-25T11:28:41Z")
Another part of the issue is the arbitrary replay rules. For some reason or other, the refs are not allowed to use instant replay to determine possession in the end zone. So the replay from last night’s last play couldn’t have been used to overturn what was clear to everyone after watching it. In real time, the play wasn’t as obvious. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/34 "2012-09-25T12:30:36Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Fuck the people in charge for turning the NFL into Calvinball. Actually, as a mostly former fan whose enthusiasm for football is at a pretty deep nadir, I’d pay to see that: “Holding, offense, Number 73, who will now have to go stand in the corner of the end zone and dance the macarena during the next play.” ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/35 "2012-09-25T12:53:54Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Another part of the issue is the arbitrary replay rules. For some reason or other, the refs are not allowed to use instant replay to determine possession in the end zone. So the replay from last night’s last play couldn’t have been used to overturn what was clear to everyone after watching it. In real time, the play wasn’t as obvious. Yeah, but two refs made two different calls, so no matter what, one call was getting overturned for the other. In addition to bad reffing, it seems to me that maybe some of these arbitrary rules need a review. I’m not saying change them all, but if I could at least get an answer as to why some of them exist…is it just that technology and the “tone” of the game advanced past what the rules expected? Why can’t possession be determined in review? Why can’t a field goal that is _over_ the uprights be reviewable if one between them is? Why can’t a coach challenge a penalty? But it’s shameful that the outcome of some close games are being determined not by teak skill, but by shitty calls from the refs. I’m bitter because I’m a Patriots fan, and even ignoring the field goal (I’ll admit it could have been in or out, bad camera angle,) the Ravens still had _two_ TDs on blown calls from the refs. On a 3rd down situation, Flacco threw an incomplete, but a ref called holding on a Pats defender. When the announcers looked at the replay, you could see that the defender’s hand barely brushed the jersey of the Ravens player. Nothing even close to holding. So Baltimore should have been forced to punt, but then went on to score a TD later in the drive. And then the second TD from Torrey Smith was blatant OPI, and wasn’t called. Earlier in the game, they called Edelman for OPI, and what Smith did was twice as bad. Edelman had his arm out and was pushing a little, while Smith pushed off of the Pats defender while he jumped into the air. It wasn’t as bad as the missed OPI against Tate last night, but it was close. I just want some consistency. So right there, that’s at least 7, potentially 14 points, the refs gave to Baltimore they shouldn’t have. And there were BS calls in the Pats favor, too. There was a 5 yard penalty for illegal contact, when there wasn’t any, though there _might_ have been holding, which would have been the same amount of yardage…but then the UC call against the coach after that was total BS. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/36 "2012-09-25T13:50:25Z")
I haven’t been watching football, but I’m fascinated by the referee situation. Could the ‘real’ refs ask for even MORE money now? I think they should, if not for themselves then for the sheer entertainment value. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/37 "2012-09-25T13:58:58Z")
I’m happy to say that I didn’t see the end of last night’s game, because I turned it off with six minutes left in disgust over _earlier_ calls. The final straw was a pass interference call against the Packers that was beyond ridiculous, and I’m a Bears fan so if I think a call against the Packers was bad it had to be pretty bad. The game was as exciting and meaningful as a coin flipping contest. Why watch the end? I have no idea how much money the regular officials make, or what they are asking for. I don’t know, and I don’t want to know. All I know is the league is putting out a shit product that I have no further interest in watching. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/38 "2012-09-25T14:14:20Z")
[The farce gets more farcical:](http://www.620wtmj.com/blogs/gregmatzek/171124991.html) > [@](#): > > …Following the [Packers-Seahawks] game, the Lingerie Football League (LFL) released a statement on it’s[sic] Facebook page explaining several officials who are now working in the NFL, were fired by the LFL because they stunk… ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/39 "2012-09-25T14:35:55Z")
Personally, I don’t have any ill will toward the replacement refs. The speed of the game at the professional level is something that the players always say they have to adjust to, so how are whole teams of refs, most not even from Division I, going to adjust, especially with so many not being so sure about the rule differences and all. However, the later into the season we get, the more blame I’ll shift onto them. That said, I’m still very frustrated with the situation because there’s been a lot of bad officiating, and that it happened in such a blatant and obvious way on a prime time game last night in a way that could have been fixed and wasn’t pretty much seals the deal. I felt like some of the inconsistency has cost my team, and I can sort of deal with that, but it’s just straight up making the game a lot less enjoyable to watch, not just because of the inconsistency, but also because some players are taking advantage of that fact. Frankly, if the NFL doesn’t make a serious public effort to address the issue before next week, I simply won’t watch it until the problem is fixed. I don’t even expect it to be resolved, just some real tangible headway. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672/40 "2012-09-25T14:40:08Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > I do. You forget in your nostalgia the truly awful calls the other guys missed. This is one of the weaker (but partially valid) apologies for the situation I’ve run across. Substitute “player” for “referee” and see if the same argument seems reasonable. Sure, we can substitute say…Taylor McHargue (Rice’s QB) for Aaron Rodgers, right? It’s just a matter of inexperience and not skill, right? After a few years, it’s not going to make a difference on the level of play, right? It’s not like Aaron Rodgers never had an awful game or anything, so obviously they’re the same level of player! That might be true for a few of the most talented college QBs (say some of the QBs at top 25 schools), but it’s not going to be true for the vast majority of college athletes. NFL officials have already gone through a selection process. They’re generally chosen from the best FBS officiating crews (who themselves rose through lower level college and high school ranks). They had to be good even to get to that level. Maybe a few of these replacement refs might actually be ok with some more experience. But most aren’t. They’ve had their shot at getting promoted and were generally looked over. These aren’t officials from the major college conferences but from high school level or D3. Or, as a Houston Chronicle columnist put it more eloquently, “[Comparing NFL replacement refs to real refs is like yo-mama to Yo Yo Ma](http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2012/09/comparing-nfl-replacement-refs-to-real-refs-is-like-yo-mama-to-yo-yo-ma/)”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hate-against-replacement-nfl-referees/635672.md?page=3)