# Why the Hell are we still in Afghanistan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2009, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416 "2009-09-17T06:10:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/121 "2009-09-25T17:10:55Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > [CBS News](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/24/60minutes/main5335445.shtml) > > Worse than expected? In _Afghanistan_? Why, who ever would have thought it! Completely unpredictable, eh, General? It’s such a peaceful area. > > Swear to God we are led by idiots. General McChrystal is a highly qualified, highly intelligent leader. It’s unfortunate that he’s subservient to politicians that are the true idiots. > [@Camus](#): > > You specifically said 85-98% of Afghanistan was under Taliban _control_. That’s not what your link says. The map is tracking the number of insurgent attacks/IEDs per week or month as well as perception of local Taliban activity. Attacks do not equal control, particularly since if they did control this much of Afghanistan, there would be no need for them to attack within those areas. > > It was the politicians, not the generals (by and large) saying that the Iraq war could be done with a minimum number of soldiers, on the cheap, and over in 6 months to a year. Gen. Shinseki, who was Army Chief of Staff just before the Iraq war, wisely foresaw that it would probably take hundreds of thousands of troops for post-war occupation. When Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, who both primarily planned the war, heard this, they immediately rejected it and cut Shinseki off at the knees. Much like writers, generals are rarely fully satisfied with whatever is in front of them, but the politicians are the ones making policy and the overall strategy. Good post, especially WRT Shinseki. He saw the writing on the wall and stood his ground to Rumsfeld and was basically forced to retire for not going along with the admin’s invasion plans. He was a smart and honorable general too. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/122 "2009-09-25T17:28:19Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > Attacks do not equal control, particularly since if they did control this much of Afghanistan, there would be no need for them to attack within those areas. Tell that to the [giant Buddha statue.](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0301-04.htm) Gonzomax’s map does make me wonder what, if anything, George W. Bush and friends were up to for the past eight years. Our level of control is as bad or worse than it was 1 month after the _start_ of the war. I guess calling a ‘surge’ now a do-over was a little overoptimistic of me. It seems it’d really amount to finally doing it after slacking our asses off for most of a decade. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/123 "2009-09-25T17:43:05Z")
If we leave Afghanistan at this point, they will stop schooling their girls, and keep selling them like cattle. They will have lovely little wars between villages and provinces until someone wins enough power to consolidate the nation in war on giant Buddhas. Afghanistan will return to being a pox on the world. If you are OK with that, fine. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/124 "2009-09-25T17:51:29Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > If you are OK with that, fine. If we stay, it’ll be a neverending cavalcade of American bodies, _plus_ they will stop schooling their girls, and sell them like cattle, and have lovely little wars between villages and provinces. Those extra bodies make _quite_ an upside for only tens of billions a year, don’t you think? We could call em America’s freedom martyrs or sumthin, and get all dewy eyed over em at the next National GOP convention. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/125 "2009-09-25T17:57:01Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > If we leave Afghanistan at this point, they will stop schooling their girls, and keep selling them like cattle. They will have lovely little wars between villages and provinces until someone wins enough power to consolidate the nation in war on giant Buddhas. Afghanistan will return to being a pox on the world. > > If you are OK with that, fine. Do we have the right to impose our social contracts on foreign lands.? When Saddam was in Iraq over half the college students were female. Many worked in business and government and they could dress western if they chose to. What kind of freedom did we bring to them? We set it up so their rights were taken away. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/126 "2009-09-25T17:59:34Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > The problem is, unlike the Sunnis in Iraq who were mainly just fighting for power, it’s harder to bribe the upper echelon Taliban who believe in establishing an Islamic, sharia law-based holy government in Afghanistan which will not suffer any kafir (infidels) on their lands. And with the Taliban, Al Queda will follow shortly behind, re-entrenching themselves. It would be like going back in time to September 10, 2001, only without the good part. If we pulled out tomorrow and AQ came back with the Taliban, what difference would it make? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/127 "2009-09-25T18:09:32Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > What corporations are being served by the US staying in Afghanistan? The entire military-industrial complex including its fueling and the private contractors that support our military, not to mention the corrupt politicians we install. Where do you think the billions go? > [@](#): > > … but if Karzai or whoever is ultimately elected president can’t run a reasonably efficient and effective government that can at least lower the corruption levels, the war will be lost anyway. Inevitable. But the real war for corporate (and opium) profit is won every day. Fight on, brother. > [@](#): > > … it’s harder to bribe the upper echelon Taliban who believe in establishing an Islamic, sharia law-based holy government in Afghanistan which will not suffer any kafir (infidels) on their lands. And with the Taliban, Al Queda will follow shortly behind, re-entrenching themselves. It would be like going back in time to September 10, 2001, only without the good part. OK, we’re going to have to accept that women will have to wear burkas there. If you don’t like it, stay home. The Taliban would be quite willing to eliminate poppies as they did in 2000 to make themselves respectable to the world. They would then be in the position of being legally able to supply the world with anesthetic. Good business. As for Al Queda, wtf. Given that AQ has moved most of its business to Pakistan, perhaps we could insist on their containing it. Perhaps, offered complete control of the country and recognition in the world community, the Taliban might see some wisdom in accommodation. I don’t _know_, do you? But we ain’t never gonna find out. It just wouldn’t be profitable. And, you can bet, it’d drop our GDP and throw a lot people on the labor market. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/128 "2009-09-25T18:10:51Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > If we leave Afghanistan at this point, they will stop schooling their girls, and keep selling them like cattle. They will have lovely little wars between villages and provinces until someone wins enough power to consolidate the nation in war on giant Buddhas. Afghanistan will return to being a pox on the world. > > If you are OK with that, fine. You’re assuming that everything we’re doing in Afghanistan is working out peachy : PANKELA, Afghanistan (Reuters) – As British troops moved into the village newly freed from Taliban control, they heard one message from the anxious locals: for God’s sake do not bring back the Afghan police. U.S. and British troops have launched a campaign to seize control of Helmand province, about half of which was in Taliban hands, and restore Afghan government institutions. But as they advance, they are learning uncomfortable facts about their local allies: villagers say the government’s police force was so brutal and corrupt that they welcomed the Taliban as liberators. “The police would stop people driving on motorcycles, beat them and take their money,” said Mohammad Gul, an elder in the village of Pankela, which British troops have been securing for the past three days after flying in by helicopter. He pointed to two compounds of neighbors where pre-teen children had been abducted by police to be used for the local practice of “bachabazi,” or sex with pre-pubescent boys. “If the boys were out in the fields, the police would come and rape them,” he said. “You can go to any police base and you will see these boys. They hold them until they are finished with them and then let the child go.” … [http://www.afghanistannewscenter.com/news/2009/july/jul122009.html#1](http://www.afghanistannewscenter.com/news/2009/july/jul122009.html#1) There are great big areas of Afghanistan we haven’t even been in to any real extent yet, either with military or humanitarian stuff. And lots of places we have been in obviously aren’t working out too well. It’s not like Afghanistan has suddenly become Switzerland just because we started bombing the crap out of it. We’ll muddle around for a while eventually pull almost all the troops out and Afghanistan will continue on its merry way. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/129 "2009-09-25T18:20:05Z")
We are fighting in countries that do not have a national government at all. They are governed by corrupt local warlords. There is no real national apparatus that can be controlled providing countrywide control. We can change the puppets we install when ever we want, but they really do not govern. We can not run a fair election. we can not top the corruption. We can not win the hearts and minds of the people. we just waste money and lives. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/130 "2009-09-25T19:09:31Z")
[http://www.alternet.org/world/141071/spending\_%24102\_billion\_a\_year\_on\_800\_worldwide\_military\_bases\_is\_bankrupting\_the\_country/](http://www.alternet.org/world/141071/spending_%24102_billion_a_year_on_800_worldwide_military_bases_is_bankrupting_the_country/) Perhaps we are there because the military does not have enough bases. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/131 "2009-09-25T19:14:31Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.alternet.org/world/141071/spending\_%24102\_billion\_a\_year\_on\_800\_worldwide\_military\_bases\_is\_bankrupting\_the\_country/](http://www.alternet.org/world/141071/spending_%24102_billion_a_year_on_800_worldwide_military_bases_is_bankrupting_the_country/) > Perhaps we are there because the military does not have enough bases. Always use a new one. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/132 "2009-09-25T20:38:04Z")
800 bases, a military presence in 150 countries and someone on here told me yesterday to stop saying the US was imperialistic. I suppose you could look on the bright side and say things are going well in 148 countries! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/133 "2009-09-25T23:36:38Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > If we stay, it’ll be a neverending cavalcade of American bodies, _plus_ they will stop schooling their girls, and sell them like cattle, and have lovely little wars between villages and provinces. > Those extra bodies make _quite_ an upside for only tens of billions a year, don’t you think? > We could call em America’s freedom martyrs or sumthin, and get all dewy eyed over em at the next National GOP convention. The Afghan War actually compared to all the other wars the US has been in has been virtually bloodless. Do you think 300,000 American lives which were lost in World War 2 or 600,000 in the American Civil War is even comparable to that? > [@gonzomax](#): > > Do we have the right to impose our social contracts on foreign lands.? > When Saddam was in Iraq over half the college students were female. Many worked in business and government and they could dress western if they chose to. What kind of freedom did we bring to them? We set it up so their rights were taken away. You are talking about Iraq not Afghanistan which is what everyone else is talking about. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > If we pulled out tomorrow and AQ came back with the Taliban, what difference would it make? 100% of Afghanistan would be mediaeval theocracy rather then 1/3. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/134 "2009-09-26T00:29:44Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The Afghan War actually compared to all the other wars the US has been in has been virtually bloodless. Do you think 300,000 American lives which were lost in World War 2 or 600,000 in the American Civil War is even comparable to that? Glad I’m not there, how about you? > [@](#): > > You are talking about Iraq not Afghanistan which is what everyone else is talking about. Strictly speaking, yes. The general policy is the same, however … make war to insure that local control doesn’t get in the way of our corporate ambitions. > [@](#): > > 100% of Afghanistan would be mediaeval theocracy rather then 1/3. Well now, that’s something to fight about, **Curtis** \*\*\*\*. [If only it weren’t so expensive.](http://www.zanesvilletimesrecorder.com/article/20090924/OPINION02/909240310/1014/OPINION) > [@](#): > > War costs are mounting, so is the criticism of the war. As of Sept. 17, at least 760 members of the U.S. military had died in Afghanistan. And as more troops are being sent to Afghanistan – U.S. forces are expected to double to 68,000 by the end of the year – the predictable result is more U.S. fatalities. This year has been the deadliest year with almost 200 U.S. troops’ deaths already, 51 in August alone. Since October 2001, the United States spent a total of $228.2 billion on the war in Afghanistan. And the cost of the war so far this year is already $60.2 billion, exceeding the costs of the war in Iraq. How much more are _you_ willing to spend? And for our money and lives so far, we’ve restored the opium trade and > [@](#): > > To make things even worse, there is the “Karzai Factor.” Afghan President Hamid Karzai now is being compared with Ngo Dinh Diem, the discredited South Vietnamese leader. Karzai is seen by many as ineffective and corrupt. Karzai’s unwillingness to challenge the powerful warlords and drug lords has not only alienated a significant portion of the Afghan population but also paralyzed his ability to govern. I personally think it’s a bad deal. How about you? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/135 "2009-09-26T00:44:03Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > If we leave Afghanistan at this point, they will stop schooling their girls, and keep selling them like cattle. They will have lovely little wars between villages and provinces until someone wins enough power to consolidate the nation in war on giant Buddhas. Afghanistan will return to being a pox on the world. > > If you are OK with that, fine. How long do we have to stay until we can be sure they won’t do those things when we leave? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/136 "2009-09-26T01:00:47Z")
Afghanistan is a perfect case for us to ramp up production and improve technology and armament for remote-controlled drones. They have been very effective (yes, I know, we’ve killed plenty of civilians with them too, partly due to intelligence being an imperfect science and partly due to the fact that we aren’t fighting a uniformed army that’s readily identifiable from the general populace) and they don’t cost “our side” a single human life to use (except for the inevitable rare friendly fire occurences). I quite like the idea of moving to more of these things. They are badass. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/137 "2009-09-26T01:26:20Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Afghanistan is a perfect case for us to ramp up production and improve technology and armament for remote-controlled drones. They have been very effective (yes, I know, we’ve killed plenty of civilians with them too, partly due to intelligence being an imperfect science and partly due to the fact that we aren’t fighting a uniformed army that’s readily identifiable from the general populace) and they don’t cost “our side” a single human life to use (except for the inevitable rare friendly fire occurences). > > I quite like the idea of moving to more of these things. They are badass. You know, if it hadn’t been for your previous posts, I’d have interpreted this post as pure irony. As it is, this is really Strangelove shit. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/138 "2009-09-26T01:34:20Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The Afghan War actually compared to all the other wars the US has been in has been virtually bloodless. Do you think 300,000 American lives which were lost in World War 2 or 600,000 in the American Civil War is even comparable to that? This seems to me a total non sequitor. What does the butcher’s bill for the civil war or WWII have to do with whether we should endorse a long and likely pointless line of American corpses for Afghanistan? Why do you even ask? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/139 "2009-09-26T01:49:17Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > You know, if it hadn’t been for your previous posts, I’d have interpreted this post as pure irony. As it is, this is really Strangelove shit. There was some irony in there, along with the “little boy that likes to play with Army men and blow stuff up with cool toys” too, but honestly…remote drones are becoming increasingly valuable, and not just for blowing things up. They are also extremely effective in recon missions, too, and many other uses that don’t involve warfare, like the Coast Guard and such. You don’t agree? If we are going to wage war in the manner that we are, in the countries that we are involved in, does it not make sense to minimize our own casualties (and costs) and maintain a kill ratio for the enemy? I’m speaking almost purely from a videogame perspective here, in a sense. I’m not getting your Strangelove reference much. It isn’t like we haven’t had these tings for awhile now, and I’m not some raving madman advocating some mutant force of warfare or whatever. Maybe you’re whooshing me or perhaps I need further explanation. Speaking from a purely clinical and cost effectiveness sense, in an area like Afghanistan (and Pakistan), these things are worth their weight in gold. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416/140 "2009-09-26T02:01:36Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The Afghan War actually compared to all the other wars the US has been in has been virtually bloodless. Do you think 300,000 American lives which were lost in World War 2 or 600,000 in the American Civil War is even comparable to that? > > You are talking about Iraq not Afghanistan which is what everyone else is talking about. > > 100% of Afghanistan would be mediaeval theocracy rather then 1/3. And Afghanistan has a history of respecting womens rights? No they are another fragmented place with no central government and local warlords fleecing the population. it is another big waste of time. The biggest power is the Taliban . They will suppress women as much as they want. We could bomb the shit out of them . Then when we leave it’s back to the past. We can not stay there. we can not fix it. But we have too much money and power. So lets waste some more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-are-we-still-in-afghanistan/510416.md?page=8)